The PPC Posting Board - Latest posts

hS, I think you're missing some nuance here...

From what I understand, this wasn't so much Sprinkles abusing someone and them not telling him it wasn't okay, as it was Sprinkles talking and being told, REPEATEDLY, that it WAS OKAY and the person in question didn't mind.

I do not feel it is fair to lay the blame entirely on Sprinkles for that, as I would in a case of simple abuse.

we don't want to drive the victim out of the community by putting them in a position where they'd have to endure further abuse.

I'd say that'd be a worse resolution than having Sprinkles gone.

I hope it's possible to protect the victim without giving Sprinkles the boot, but if not ... so be it.

- Tomash

Our response to such a situation should not depend on who the victim is (or who the abuser is). What would knowing who's been abused change here? Would it somehow alter your response to this? (If so, why?)

The "almost always" above is there because, if there is someone here whose claims you'd consider significantly less credible, please do raise that. To be clear, I really don't think there's any such person here, and I would be quite surprised if you did, but I'm raising the possibility because I don't want to fire off overly-broad blanket statements.

- Tomash

Is "in PPC group chat" a qualifier there? That is, is the probability of that forced shift of personality something other than "very unlikely" in the context of, say, PMs?

- Tomash

that I am not talking about Sprinkles and the PPC now. I am talking about Sprinkles and his victim (be it intentional or not, this person is still a victim).

Did Sprinkles knew he was abusive in his behavior? Who know, maybe not. I can only assume neither he nor his victim did not delete the PMs after said abuse was flung there. After he came to his senses he probably had seen what he's done, maybe even apologized, but seeing that much hurt as what we've seen in chat would probably make anyone think "Sheesh, I said some horrible things". So, maybe while not intentional, he might've been aware of his words.

About the 'mind-reader' thing we've seemingly went with... It's not how that works. Yes, you can't read body expressions, voice tone in a text-based interaction. However, there are people (like the victim, and... I guess I can include myself there), who will never tell others they don't want to listen to them. Because they feel like if something happens, it's because of them. Because they want to help, despite all odds. And I remember even before Sprinkles's introduction, how the soon-to-be victim claimed they were so worried about Sprinkles, and his situation. None of that was a lie. And you've voiced the victim's exact thoughts in your fourth paragraph.

I went through similar scenarios on my own. Twice. Twice I said or did something that shouldn't have been done. Twice I lost control. Twice I deeply hurt two separate people. Twice I was blocked, shunned publically and denied any sort of communication. Exactly what the victim did to Sprinkles. And I did exactly the same steps - excessive apologies, asking other to rely messages how sorry I am and how I want to try again. All to no use. And you know what? It helped. It helped me reflecting over what should I change. By letting my victims have their space and peace, one of them find it in themselves to forgive me after a year of silence. We're on very good terms back again. The other? I can only hope, but this one went a bit deeper, so I don't expect it happening anytime sooner or later.

The point is, what took me a year and a bit, Sprinkles is trying to achieve in not even a week. It's simply not possible. Even if he comes back to the PPC, the victim will avoid him, and his attempts to reach them will only make it worse.

So, per downthread:

- Sprinkles has made a person/multiple people uncomfortable by behaving abusively in PMs.

- There is a person, let's call them X, that Sprinkles has been acting abusively towards in PMs for months.

- Because of said behavior, X has, for a good while, been uncomfortable with/afraid to/unwilling to/... with:
a) Sprinkles's behavior
b) Telling Sprinkles to stop
c) Reporting this

- It is unclear whether or not Sprinkles was aware of the impact his behavior was having before the block/this thread.

- Recently (after Sprinkles's rant), X blocked Sprinkles.

- After said block, Sprinkles has been attempting to (directly and/or indirectly) apologize and resume contact with X, in a manner that constitutes harassment.

- X continues to be unwilling to publicize their identity or speak up for themselves, and Delta has been advocating for them.

My thoughts:

It is unclear whether or not Sprinkles's behavior before the block is something we can/should do anything to address in an Official Community Action way. It was, to be clear, a bad thing, though.

However, recent events are (again, if past events were also this, we should be informed, as that changes a lot of things) something that is much less ambiguous: a harassment issue. X does not want to hear from Sprinkles, either ever again or for a good long while, and Sprinkles has been very much not respecting that (or at least, that's been implied downthread). For example, by bugging multiple people to try and get his apologies passed on to X.

This behavior is unambiguously (aka there is not a "Oh I had no idea I was being harassing." defense to this part) Not OK.

The question then arises: what do we do about it?

I have a proposal. I don't know if this is a feasible proposal, and I don't know if it'll work for X.

- Before readmission to chat, Sprinkles needs to stop harassing X (and any other relevant people) and fully apologize for doing so

- Sprinkles needs to respect the spirit of the block once he's back in chat. That is, he should act as if X doesn't exist. No mentioning them, no alluding to them, etc etc. (It'd probably be fine for them to both talk about something, but they should not talk to each other.

- A corollary to this is that X should also avoid interacting with Sprinkles. However, the burden of avoiding interaction is on Sprinkles, not X. It's Sprinkles's job to stay away from X, not the other way around.

- Voip makes this type of restriction complicated, especially since the situation as it stands would have X being unable to join voip if Sprinkles happens to be there. Thoughts?

- Violation of the spirit of the block, is, at the determination of the mods, a kick and some (not permanent the first time around, probably) ban from chat.
- Continued harassment is a nice enforced vacation from the PPC. That's how we've dealt with this before.

Again, I don't know if this is going to help any, because I really don't know much about how abusive situations work or what should be done in response.

I would appreciate comments and feedback on this attempted compromise resolution.

- Tomash

In this post, you come across very much as saying that a victim of abuse should try to work things out with the person subjecting them to abusive behaviour - that they need to put that person's wellbeing above their own. I'm sure that's not the message you were trying to give, but it's the one that comes across.

I get that you're trying to see Sprinkles' side of things, but also remember that the other person is a person, too. Having their months (per Delta Juliette) of abuse revealed and then met with 'well, you should've said something sooner, it's unfair to stop talking to him now' has the potential to be incredibly damaging to them.

Stop, step back, think about what you're saying. Please.

hS

That the victim of abuse should absolutely forgive and accept Other!Sprinkles (because for me it's evident there is some sort of problem going, and he wishes to call it a "forced shift of personality") back as their friend, here's a little compilation of what went down in the main Discord chat. I only blurted out the names of called-out PPC-ers. Pay attention especially to messages number 2, 6, 7, and 9.

https://imgur.com/a/JWJhQ

Now imagine this being sent to you privately over, and over, and over, and over, and over... and you not saying a single bad word to the abuser about this. I admire the victim for being patient for so long.

Speaking as someone who often does not read social situations very well, who needs things to be clear, who also tries to be a good person and puts up with sometimes inappropriate behavior from others in the name of not upsetting others.

Speaking as that person. I can understand snapping once one has reached the point of "I can't deal with this any longer."

However, speaking also speaking as that person forget being a mind reader. If a person tells me, "I am good with hearing your problems." "I am okay with our relationship as it is." I will always, always take them at face value. Even in person, when the tone of voice or body language would be communicating to an average person "This person is lying. You should shut up now." How much more so in a text based communication with no nuance?

I have been the person multiple times in real life and online that people have said, "You are fine as you are." "I am okay with this relationship as is." Only to suddenly find myself utterly blindsided, completely cut-off and everyone horrendously angry at me, because apparently I wasn't fine as is and they were not okay with me. It is a gut-wrenching feeling. It leaves long-lasting effects. I have internalized deep, deep down that I am an inherently bad person that bothers and hurts people, that I must limit my contact with people and spend every ounce of energy I have in a social setting on being pleasant, and helpful, and never, ever expressing my wants or opinions for fear of that being the thing that causes everyone to turn on me.

I have been involved with a group in real life for over four years of the nicest, most non-judgmental people I have ever met. People who want to be my friend, and you know what? Because of experiences exactly like this I am still unable to accept what they are offering.

I've not actually opened up since the last group did that to me seven years ago. It hurt too much to allow me to risk letting people have that kind of emotional power over me again, and I know that I am missing out on so much of life because I have no real connections outside of immediate family and even with them there are parts of me I keep closely guarded.

I am not a person who enjoys hurting others. I truly do not want to cause anyone else any pain. I have never wanted that. There has never been a time in my life where if someone had said to me, "This thing you are doing, or are about to do, is hurting someone" where I wouldn't have stopped immediately and apologized and probably slunk off into long, long sessions of self-recriminations. I've never been given that chance to stop and apologize.

I'm saying that Sprinkles and every single person deserves that chance. It is unfair to tell someone they are doing good and then blindside them with public shunning, because you chose not to communicate with them.

And said person always thinks more of others than about themselves. Of course they would tell Sprinkles everything was okay, even if they were in a burning building. As long as he doesn't come over to burn, too.

The thing is, if they were getting this much abuse and verbal punching every other day, like what we've got in the chat... I can't do anything else but to agree with them. And I personally doubt Sprinkles would stop mid-rant. He had no control over his words last time. Not because he's a bad person, but because that's how it goes.

There's no doubt about him regretting his actions, but... I'd say, for the time being, it's not gonna help. And I know this better than anyone; big wounds and emotional pain takes more than just a day of two and a boatload of apologies. Said person will not forgive him and accept him in an instant, especially not since he's using proxies to convince said person to accept his apologies.

Pure and simple, and this is a message to Sprinkles as well: They don't want to hear from you. Give them time, maybe they'll decide they do. For now, you've caused too much pain to them to recognize you. You've apologized and that's the only thing you can do for now.

Man, that's one juicy hypocrisy coming from me...

Abuse isn't okay just because the victim didn't feel able to stand up for themselves.

And it's making me really uncomfortable that there are now at least three people insisting that it is.

hS

You have a person you care about, whom you supported through difficult times in their life, because you know how difficult this situation is. You get invested, because you're a good person and want to help. Then, at various times you get multiple DMs filled with woe, regret, perhaps even verbal abuse like the one we've experienced in the main chat, making you feel like you're a failure. Like you hadn't done anything significant in helping that person. Rinse, repeat.

Now, at one point are you just simply gonna yell out your problems at your "ward" how you're done with hearing all the pestering abuse, and how his behaviour ruins your own psyche? No, of course not. You're gonna pretend everything's fine, telling them you're okay. Because you're a good person who thinks first of other rather than yourself. You just dont' want to deepen the wounds even further.

I knew this walking into it- and also that I wouldn't be okay without saying what I could.

-Delta

So I understand what this person is getting at here? The thing is, Sprinkles has told me that A) Said person had reassured them multiple times that they were okay with it, and B) The blockage came with no warning. My own personal take on it is that this would have been way better had Sprinkles been spoken with by said person before it escalated into said person needing to cut contact with them. As it is, this has dealt Sprinkles a blow I'm afraid he may not recover from. Said person may do as they wish; I (Quincy) just want them to know the impacts their decisions are having on the people they affect.

Here's the problem: nobody here's psychic. So we have to go by what people tell us. Sprinkles couldn't know about the other person's issues. Or that they felt uncomfortable.

This isn't necessarily their fault. Maybe they should have spoken up. Maybe Sprinkles should have been more perceptive.

This is a complicated failure state in a relationship, and I can't fix it.

The only thing I can do is to tell everyone: If you are feeling upset, or uncomfortable, or bothered, do not lie and say it's fine, speak up early, speak up often.

If you've been abused, or hurt, I don't think that will fix anything. But maybe hearing this will help you find your voice. Because as someone who did speak up, I can tell you: it gets better.

I don't know if it helps, but I live in hope.
-Thoth

I would be willing to stand behind you on this, but I feel like you are working against yourself. We cant support this person if we don't know who they are, and it sort of just helps this supposed 'abuser' thing along. I just can't get behind your argument as it stands. I know that this person's pain is importent, but since it is an anonymous, faceless, figure at the moment... sorry.

I'm not going to insist that they do.

But what they did hurt someone (Sprinkles), seemingly about as much as Sprinkles hurt them. Whoever they are, I feel that is something they need to know, because it does matter, and it is important.

This isn't a case of one person hurting another. This is two people hurting each other, deeply and profoundly.

"Sprinkles is having a meltdown
In the main chat
Now imagine this every other day over PMs
[...] I'm done"

In short, I refuse to pressure them or support pressuring them. They've been pretty badly hurt by all this? Please stop trying to insist that they must do emotional work.

I... suspect that the person in question has been through a reasonable amount of abuse. And a few key tactics of abusers are to A, make sure that their victims know that any sort of resistance will only be met with more abuse, and B, that looking for any sort of outside help will also be met with more abuse.

To make it very clear: I do not believe Sprinkles is an abuser. I do not believe he is Bad, I do not believe he walked into this to hurt people- but people have been hurt nonetheless, and I'm concerned that it will happen again.

I intend to talk with the unnamed person about this once this round of drama is over? But none of this changes the pain that they experienced.

And this is also why I'm continuing to disagree with inviting Sprinkles back into the chat- from my conversation with him, I know he's carrying a lot of pain that he doesn't show all the time. And I know that he's accidentally let it loose and hurt someone deeply without realizing it. And I'm worried that there's nothing that's been discussed that can prevent that from happening again.

I'm not, for the record, making this the hill I'm going to die on. I want to make sure people have at least some insight into all the sides of the story. Sprinkles chose to leave, and has asked for permission to come back- if that's the consensus that is reached, I'll support it. But I want to make sure that that consensus is based on at least something like a full understanding.

The worst part? Is that the people at the heart of this are all in a lot of pain. I hate that, I hate that there isn't a cleaner solution, I hate that I didn't know enough to step in before it all boiled over. I feel like I've failed on this one.

Sprinkles has had someone he loves very much just completely abandon him without any explanation. Right now, he's absolutely... just... devastated, is the best way I have to describe it. He's wondering, right now, if all of those happy times were a lie... if all the times that person said they cared, said they loved him were just falsehoods. I don't understand this person's motivations for cutting him off, but... Please, if there's any way to offer any sort of explanation... anything would be better than this. He'd say this himself, but he's having trouble talking to me, let alone post publicly.

I'd say that talking out the issue would be the best thing. But I'm not involved, and I understand others disagree.

But does this need to impact the rest of the community to this extent? The question is, should Sprinkles be booted from the community (or at least the Discord portion) because of an issue with one member which, AFAICT, could have been resolved simply by asking him to stop?

I say no, personally. But I'm not the only person here.

Although I admit my perspective is limited, I would be willing to let him back into the Discord channel.

Firstly, the purely technical. He was not, at any point, actually kicked. He left of his own accord, and in this particular case, I don't feel the situation warrants a ban. While my memory is horribly faulty, I don't recall anything like a warning before the incident that would create reason for what would amount to a ban.

Secondly, since the event, he has been nothing but apologetic, to myself and to others. Given the mental circumstances around the incident, and things I've been told since then, I believe that a repeated occurrence would be unlikely. Therefore, I'd be willing to have him back.

As I'd noted, this has been going on for a while and from their perspective, this has been a really nasty few months- I don't think there is an easy resolution. At the very least, I expect that they will not contact Sprinkles for the forseeable future. (And we really shouldn't attempt to force them to, that's just a terrible idea.)