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IF it's actually the case and Sprinkles was not in his right mind.

I am staying middle ground on whether or not he has a problem and that "alter personality forcing him to spit out abuse" is an actual thing. If it is, this takes a different turn that if it wasn't. Remember the Other!Sprinkles saying "I'm good at pretending"?

My point is, and I would like a clarification from three people here - Calliope, Quincy, and you Thoth -, that right now the general vibe is that the victim is a bad person for not staying with Sprinkles and letting him, or his other self, emotionally abuse them, to which I ask:

Has any of you three ever been subjected to a mental abuse? Do you have any idea how it works? How your brain feels heavy whenever that one person is talking to you? How you get sweaty, dizzy, feel like crying? It is not something that can be solved with a simple "please stop".

Plus, you're once again missing the context, Thoth. The victim said that Sprinkles talking about his problems was okay. How the heck would Other!Sprinkles's abuse be okay? THAT is why the victim blocked any form of contact with Sprinkles. Because, as you've mentioned before you experienced, they felt a shift coming on and wanted to protect themselves from the incoming abuse. And they are now suffering a withdrawal. They're too conflicted to either unblock Sprinkles (because who knows when this happens again), and keep blocking him (because it's not Other!Sprinkles anymore). Please stop seeing this as the victim's fault. It was the only mechanism of self-defense they've had left.

I'm not sure that "the issues between them" is a restriction that will cover anything that's actually a problem. From what I can tell, the issue is Sprinkles going on the sort of rant we saw in chat a few days back, just over and over in PMs, to the point that X (who had been trying to help that whole time) eventually snapped and had enough.

Now, there doesn't seem to be anything in that above paragraph warranting an immediate hurling out the door. However, if we're looking at levels of rant etc. that are objectively unreasonable, that is, Sprinkles should've known that was too much to pin on someone (it's currently unclear if that's the case, for one, no logs), someone should mention this.

Therefore, as an amendment to the previous proposal, Sprinkles needs to also not do the insulting rant thing he did to chat a few days ago, privately or otherwise, probably on pain of temp-boot. (If nothing else, it avoids re-exposing X to that.).

If Sprinkles can't control that behavior ... I don't know. I can very much understand why many people are uncomfortable having someone who'll tend to do that to people in the chat though.

Referring to elsewhere in the thread, I predict that if that kept happening in chat, I'd be feeling really nice/sympathetic/... and likely wouldn't be calling for boots, even though they'd be needed to preserve the utility of the chat for everyone else. I have the feeling this is the position X is in at the moment.

*sighs* This is hard.

- Tomash

Can we then blame Sprinkles entirely?

He was repeatedly sent the message, deliberate or no, that what he did was okay. If you keep getting sent the message that the things you're saying are alright by the person you're talking to, then I can't blame you for thinking that.

I am not saying that Sprinkles bears no responsibility. I am not saying that the other individual is The Problem. I am saying that this is more complex then a simple case of abuse, and that it was a particularly nasty interaction between two flawed human beings, and I don't think we can reasonably simply assign blame to one or the other.

It's probably unwise to type this literally minutes before work... Then again, people who are in a rush tend to write what's on their mind, without taking time to sound more neutral or PC. So here goes:

Sprinkles is not a bad guy. That has to be established first. He's a bloke with problems, just like many of us. I have no details about his life situation, but suffice to say it's not easy. He deals with his problems, and I believe that being among the PPC people kinda helped him in that matter. It's no longer a question of whether or not he should be invited back to the Discord, because he was never kicked off of it.

Now, for the bigger issue. Is Sprinkles an abuser? Yes. Yes, he is. HOWEVER, this is not a type of abuse that he chooses to inflict. He does not pick up his victims and pretends to be this poor, unfortunate, soul only to take pleasure in their suffering. He does not do this consciously. If we take into consideration what he claims being "another personality taking over", maybe it's a type of schizophrenia? I have no idea, and I don't know if Sprinkles had done anything to treat it. Nonetheless, it IS an abuse, and nothing that his victims do is their fault.

Once again, I will give you an compilation of what happened that time at Discord. This is but a few of the messages displayed in public. Please look at some of the words. "I'll hurt you". "I'll make you hate me". "Stop lying". Now, who can honestly say that they would be okay with getting things like this? Do you truly believe Sprinkles's victim was FINE with getting borderline THREATS for over a month? And then, after they've finally decided this has to stop, and chose the safest possible way of finishing it, you guys dare saying "Oh, they should've just tell Sprinkles and not make a big fuss about it." NO. Hell to the n, to the o! Why? Because Sprinkles clearly had no control over his abusive self. Telling him to stop wouldn't do anything, because it's not this side of him performing the abuse.

And yes, I said "safest" possible way out was going completely cold. Why? Well, imagine this - you suffer an abuse, from a person you care about and do their absolute best to keep sane. You bottle up all your emotion, so they finally burst like a Mentos+Cola combination. What good would saying "Yeah, he abused me emotionally" do? It would only create a situation of "How dare you accusing him!", "Booo! Attention beggar!", "He has problems! It's your job to help him!". It would definitely turn into a victim blaming scenario. One we don't need here anymore.

Final thoughts? I have no problems with Sprinkles coming to Discord. It seems like he has now a few more people to talk to, maybe this will help him. But he has to respect his victim's wish and now interact with them, until they decide it's okay. Because this was a strained relationship for both of them. They need a break from one another.

Having recently conversed with Sprinkles, he said that he's figured out how to control it for the most part. But then a shift came on, so I have witnessed how this works: He warned me that a shift was coming on, told me to stop communicating with him for the duration, and changed his nick and icon rather drastically, as a warning sign to others that he was in A Not Good Place and Should Not Be Contacted.

So I would say that the risk is no greater in PMs, at least based on my personal experience.

A nice and kind person will never tell you to stop talking to them about your problems. They will listen and let you vent and even insult everything (including them), and calmly respond with positive messages. They will be worried that if they say anything other than a reassuring thought, they will make the matter even worse and will be perceived by others as selfish scum. EXACTLY, how the victim in question feels right now.

I know several people who are like this. This is why, if I talk my problems with them, I tend to apologize for rambling and taking their time.

That's how it was perceived: Sprinkles was informed that what he was saying and doing was okay by the individual in question, and that they didn't mind hearing it.

That may not have been the intended message, but that the message it seems Sprinkles got.

I propose a slightly more relaxed restriction, Tomash. Partly because it solves the VoIP issue, partly because I just think it's a better solution.

-Sprinkles should not try to force a discussion with the individual in question, or seek out contact with them.

-HOWEVER, if that individual is in a discussion that Sprinkles is also in and wishes to join, Sprinkles may respond to their comments in said discussion. The same goes for the individual.

-If, through any means, the topic of discussion becomes the issues between Sprinkles and the individual, then Sprinkles must exit the conversation unless the individual explicitly states otherwise.

-In VoIP, the same rules apply: Sprinkles may join in discussion that involves the individual, but may not seek them out, and may not broach this subject.

Does this seem reasonable? If it doesn't, we can go for Tomash's original, but I do feel this laxer allows both Sprinkles and the individual more flexibility, and a more sane ability operate in a shared space. I have been known to be wrong, however, and if others feel Tomash's proposal seems stronger, I can deal with that.

From your message, it seems like the victim said that the abuse was okay. No. They've listened to Sprinkles, because they feel responsible for them. Because they care. Because they knew how is it to be in a dangerous family situation. But everything has limits. You were in the chat when the flood of emotion happened, some of which included insults and accusations of falsehood and lies. Getting that send to you over and over would break anyone.

hS, I think you're missing some nuance here...

From what I understand, this wasn't so much Sprinkles abusing someone and them not telling him it wasn't okay, as it was Sprinkles talking and being told, REPEATEDLY, that it WAS OKAY and the person in question didn't mind.

I do not feel it is fair to lay the blame entirely on Sprinkles for that, as I would in a case of simple abuse.

we don't want to drive the victim out of the community by putting them in a position where they'd have to endure further abuse.

I'd say that'd be a worse resolution than having Sprinkles gone.

I hope it's possible to protect the victim without giving Sprinkles the boot, but if not ... so be it.

- Tomash

Our response to such a situation should not depend on who the victim is (or who the abuser is). What would knowing who's been abused change here? Would it somehow alter your response to this? (If so, why?)

The "almost always" above is there because, if there is someone here whose claims you'd consider significantly less credible, please do raise that. To be clear, I really don't think there's any such person here, and I would be quite surprised if you did, but I'm raising the possibility because I don't want to fire off overly-broad blanket statements.

- Tomash

Is "in PPC group chat" a qualifier there? That is, is the probability of that forced shift of personality something other than "very unlikely" in the context of, say, PMs?

- Tomash

that I am not talking about Sprinkles and the PPC now. I am talking about Sprinkles and his victim (be it intentional or not, this person is still a victim).

Did Sprinkles knew he was abusive in his behavior? Who know, maybe not. I can only assume neither he nor his victim did not delete the PMs after said abuse was flung there. After he came to his senses he probably had seen what he's done, maybe even apologized, but seeing that much hurt as what we've seen in chat would probably make anyone think "Sheesh, I said some horrible things". So, maybe while not intentional, he might've been aware of his words.

About the 'mind-reader' thing we've seemingly went with... It's not how that works. Yes, you can't read body expressions, voice tone in a text-based interaction. However, there are people (like the victim, and... I guess I can include myself there), who will never tell others they don't want to listen to them. Because they feel like if something happens, it's because of them. Because they want to help, despite all odds. And I remember even before Sprinkles's introduction, how the soon-to-be victim claimed they were so worried about Sprinkles, and his situation. None of that was a lie. And you've voiced the victim's exact thoughts in your fourth paragraph.

I went through similar scenarios on my own. Twice. Twice I said or did something that shouldn't have been done. Twice I lost control. Twice I deeply hurt two separate people. Twice I was blocked, shunned publically and denied any sort of communication. Exactly what the victim did to Sprinkles. And I did exactly the same steps - excessive apologies, asking other to rely messages how sorry I am and how I want to try again. All to no use. And you know what? It helped. It helped me reflecting over what should I change. By letting my victims have their space and peace, one of them find it in themselves to forgive me after a year of silence. We're on very good terms back again. The other? I can only hope, but this one went a bit deeper, so I don't expect it happening anytime sooner or later.

The point is, what took me a year and a bit, Sprinkles is trying to achieve in not even a week. It's simply not possible. Even if he comes back to the PPC, the victim will avoid him, and his attempts to reach them will only make it worse.

In this post, you come across very much as saying that a victim of abuse should try to work things out with the person subjecting them to abusive behaviour - that they need to put that person's wellbeing above their own. I'm sure that's not the message you were trying to give, but it's the one that comes across.

I get that you're trying to see Sprinkles' side of things, but also remember that the other person is a person, too. Having their months (per Delta Juliette) of abuse revealed and then met with 'well, you should've said something sooner, it's unfair to stop talking to him now' has the potential to be incredibly damaging to them.

Stop, step back, think about what you're saying. Please.

hS

So, per downthread:

- Sprinkles has made a person/multiple people uncomfortable by behaving abusively in PMs.

- There is a person, let's call them X, that Sprinkles has been acting abusively towards in PMs for months.

- Because of said behavior, X has, for a good while, been uncomfortable with/afraid to/unwilling to/... with:
a) Sprinkles's behavior
b) Telling Sprinkles to stop
c) Reporting this

- It is unclear whether or not Sprinkles was aware of the impact his behavior was having before the block/this thread.

- Recently (after Sprinkles's rant), X blocked Sprinkles.

- After said block, Sprinkles has been attempting to (directly and/or indirectly) apologize and resume contact with X, in a manner that constitutes harassment.

- X continues to be unwilling to publicize their identity or speak up for themselves, and Delta has been advocating for them.

My thoughts:

It is unclear whether or not Sprinkles's behavior before the block is something we can/should do anything to address in an Official Community Action way. It was, to be clear, a bad thing, though.

However, recent events are (again, if past events were also this, we should be informed, as that changes a lot of things) something that is much less ambiguous: a harassment issue. X does not want to hear from Sprinkles, either ever again or for a good long while, and Sprinkles has been very much not respecting that (or at least, that's been implied downthread). For example, by bugging multiple people to try and get his apologies passed on to X.

This behavior is unambiguously (aka there is not a "Oh I had no idea I was being harassing." defense to this part) Not OK.

The question then arises: what do we do about it?

I have a proposal. I don't know if this is a feasible proposal, and I don't know if it'll work for X.

- Before readmission to chat, Sprinkles needs to stop harassing X (and any other relevant people) and fully apologize for doing so

- Sprinkles needs to respect the spirit of the block once he's back in chat. That is, he should act as if X doesn't exist. No mentioning them, no alluding to them, etc etc. (It'd probably be fine for them to both talk about something, but they should not talk to each other.

- A corollary to this is that X should also avoid interacting with Sprinkles. However, the burden of avoiding interaction is on Sprinkles, not X. It's Sprinkles's job to stay away from X, not the other way around.

- Voip makes this type of restriction complicated, especially since the situation as it stands would have X being unable to join voip if Sprinkles happens to be there. Thoughts?

- Violation of the spirit of the block, is, at the determination of the mods, a kick and some (not permanent the first time around, probably) ban from chat.
- Continued harassment is a nice enforced vacation from the PPC. That's how we've dealt with this before.

Again, I don't know if this is going to help any, because I really don't know much about how abusive situations work or what should be done in response.

I would appreciate comments and feedback on this attempted compromise resolution.

- Tomash

That the victim of abuse should absolutely forgive and accept Other!Sprinkles (because for me it's evident there is some sort of problem going, and he wishes to call it a "forced shift of personality") back as their friend, here's a little compilation of what went down in the main Discord chat. I only blurted out the names of called-out PPC-ers. Pay attention especially to messages number 2, 6, 7, and 9.

https://imgur.com/a/JWJhQ

Now imagine this being sent to you privately over, and over, and over, and over, and over... and you not saying a single bad word to the abuser about this. I admire the victim for being patient for so long.

Speaking as someone who often does not read social situations very well, who needs things to be clear, who also tries to be a good person and puts up with sometimes inappropriate behavior from others in the name of not upsetting others.

Speaking as that person. I can understand snapping once one has reached the point of "I can't deal with this any longer."

However, speaking also speaking as that person forget being a mind reader. If a person tells me, "I am good with hearing your problems." "I am okay with our relationship as it is." I will always, always take them at face value. Even in person, when the tone of voice or body language would be communicating to an average person "This person is lying. You should shut up now." How much more so in a text based communication with no nuance?

I have been the person multiple times in real life and online that people have said, "You are fine as you are." "I am okay with this relationship as is." Only to suddenly find myself utterly blindsided, completely cut-off and everyone horrendously angry at me, because apparently I wasn't fine as is and they were not okay with me. It is a gut-wrenching feeling. It leaves long-lasting effects. I have internalized deep, deep down that I am an inherently bad person that bothers and hurts people, that I must limit my contact with people and spend every ounce of energy I have in a social setting on being pleasant, and helpful, and never, ever expressing my wants or opinions for fear of that being the thing that causes everyone to turn on me.

I have been involved with a group in real life for over four years of the nicest, most non-judgmental people I have ever met. People who want to be my friend, and you know what? Because of experiences exactly like this I am still unable to accept what they are offering.

I've not actually opened up since the last group did that to me seven years ago. It hurt too much to allow me to risk letting people have that kind of emotional power over me again, and I know that I am missing out on so much of life because I have no real connections outside of immediate family and even with them there are parts of me I keep closely guarded.

I am not a person who enjoys hurting others. I truly do not want to cause anyone else any pain. I have never wanted that. There has never been a time in my life where if someone had said to me, "This thing you are doing, or are about to do, is hurting someone" where I wouldn't have stopped immediately and apologized and probably slunk off into long, long sessions of self-recriminations. I've never been given that chance to stop and apologize.

I'm saying that Sprinkles and every single person deserves that chance. It is unfair to tell someone they are doing good and then blindside them with public shunning, because you chose not to communicate with them.

And said person always thinks more of others than about themselves. Of course they would tell Sprinkles everything was okay, even if they were in a burning building. As long as he doesn't come over to burn, too.

The thing is, if they were getting this much abuse and verbal punching every other day, like what we've got in the chat... I can't do anything else but to agree with them. And I personally doubt Sprinkles would stop mid-rant. He had no control over his words last time. Not because he's a bad person, but because that's how it goes.

There's no doubt about him regretting his actions, but... I'd say, for the time being, it's not gonna help. And I know this better than anyone; big wounds and emotional pain takes more than just a day of two and a boatload of apologies. Said person will not forgive him and accept him in an instant, especially not since he's using proxies to convince said person to accept his apologies.

Pure and simple, and this is a message to Sprinkles as well: They don't want to hear from you. Give them time, maybe they'll decide they do. For now, you've caused too much pain to them to recognize you. You've apologized and that's the only thing you can do for now.

Man, that's one juicy hypocrisy coming from me...

Abuse isn't okay just because the victim didn't feel able to stand up for themselves.

And it's making me really uncomfortable that there are now at least three people insisting that it is.

hS

You have a person you care about, whom you supported through difficult times in their life, because you know how difficult this situation is. You get invested, because you're a good person and want to help. Then, at various times you get multiple DMs filled with woe, regret, perhaps even verbal abuse like the one we've experienced in the main chat, making you feel like you're a failure. Like you hadn't done anything significant in helping that person. Rinse, repeat.

Now, at one point are you just simply gonna yell out your problems at your "ward" how you're done with hearing all the pestering abuse, and how his behaviour ruins your own psyche? No, of course not. You're gonna pretend everything's fine, telling them you're okay. Because you're a good person who thinks first of other rather than yourself. You just dont' want to deepen the wounds even further.

I knew this walking into it- and also that I wouldn't be okay without saying what I could.

-Delta