Subject: Oh great King...
Author:
Posted on: 2013-04-16 15:50:00 UTC
I am in the midst of writing thesis, live on tea and anxiety, and woke up this morning thinking it was October. (No idea why: the weather's amazing and my window was open.) It's no reflection on you, really. :D
This thread was conceived for those of us who have been here since the PPC was essentially a Lord of the Rings fanwriting community with a really big twist - but is of course open to everyone. ;) It'd be great to see some of the newer faces talking about the good old things.
That was detailed. But all good points, I agree that in their attempt to expand Faramir, they only made him worse. It's honestly impossible for me to talk about movies to anyone not directly in front of my face, though. I could go on for hours.
Relating more to the PPC itself, what has the first part of The Hobbit done to the badfic community?Judging from what the three LotR movies did, I can't expect anything good. I suppose it's harder to lust over dwarves, but I worry for Fili and Kili's safety... On top of all the other very scary varities of fanfiction that just shouldn't happen.
This is the PPC! If we had a motto* it would be "The devil is in the details, and we're here to find him and discover what exactly he's up to." No, wait, that's a stupid motto.
(* We do have a motto, although I don't know if anyone remembers. It's "Do not meddle in the affairs of Assassins, for we are heavily armed and quick to anger. And not noticeably subtle.")
As to the fanfic impact of UJ, I honestly have no idea. I just hope no-one's thought processes run to 'Hey, [Name] is the most popular character... and I'm bored while making pancakes... ooh, I know what to do for the next year and a half!'...
hS
Is the screen-saver on my laptop. Has been for years. I figure it's appropriate for warning people off messing with my personal property, if slightly confusing. ^_^
~Neshomeh
It'll be basically an entire day of Middle-earth. My inner fangirl is squealing.
I personally can understand what they were doing with Arwen's inclusion and all the other additions of female characters into the films aside from the canon roles - most of the books are, after all, predominantly a sausagefest, and in modern times inclusiveness is in (or you get Tumblr crazies shouting "THE HOBBIT IS A SEXIST PILE OF ORC-DUNG BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY LADIES IN IT" because really, I don't think I saw a single female with lines in the pages of that book).
And as for other changes - well, Peter Jackson seems to function on the rule of Why Not. Stone giants did exist in the Hobbit, but Peter took it and ran away with it and made the Misty Mountains far more dangerous than it should be (falling off a stone giant in your sleep, much? And if the giants were part of the mountain, does that mean orcs live inside them like parasitic maggots? What happens if the giants relocate?). That's just one example, though.
I enjoyed the films as films in their own right, having seen them long after the DVDs came out and such. I suppose now that PJ has the money to really get down to the details in the Hobbit, he's just really... ran off with the story. I look forward to future installments, but I will admit some parts of the Hobbit were just horribly paced and I wonder why they didn't keep it to two films. Three seems a bit overkill.
I like McCoy as Radagast. The bunny sled sounds like something the Doctor would do.
Checking Wikipedia tells me the following:
UJ: 169 minutes + 25 in the announced Extended Addition
DoS: Unknown
TaBA: Unknown
BoH: 71 minutes
HfG: 38 minutes
FotR: 178 minutes + 30 in the EE (excluding the fanclub credits)
TTT: 179 minutes + 45 EE
RotK: 200 minutes + 41 EE
Assuming DoS-EE and TaBA-EE add up to exactly the same as UJ-EE, that gives a total of 1364 minutes runtime, or almost 23 hours. Okay, that probably includes the normal (non-fanclub) credits, but even without those... well, if you watch them straight through and only stop to change the DVDs, go to the toilet, and get more popcorn and fizzy drink of choice, you'd still end up spending more than 24 hours in place.
I suppose the advantage of that is that you wouldn't be up to much complaining by the time you reached TTT/RotK? (And bear in mind that the LotR films got longer as they went on - RotK-EE is a full half hour longer than FotR-EE)
hS
... while they added Arwen-the-random-horsemaid (and gave us innumerably fanfics unironically using 'She-elf') and her Amazing(ly Random) Depression, they took our Ioreth the healer, who was actually a character. I think you're right about their motives, but... it was really fumbled.
And, er, were there any females with lines in UJ? Oh, well, Artanis I guess. I know there was at least one female dwarf in the prologue - I assume Dis, though I don't remember anything about her - but were there any with lines?
I agree with you about Why Not - and I think that he needs someone to occasionally tell him why not. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it makes not the blindest bit of sense (although you've now given me plot-Nuzguls of a group of Stone Giants getting together to complain about their afflictions: "Have you seen ggRRoooGGh lately?" "Oh, didn't you know? He's caught a bad case of goblins...")
But I'm straying from the point! The important thing is that a Middle-earth Marathon is totally going to happen. Only, er, if it involves multiple people, particularly across time-zones, it probably won't be a 'marathon' so much as 'a film a day'.
Which would make it a week of Middle-earth! This just keeps getting better...
hS
...but have owned the special extended editions of the LotR movies ever since they came out. The Ride of the Rohirrim is possibly my favorite piece of music in a movie ever. Stuff like Evil!Faramir and giving Treebeard some of Tom Bombadil's lines (yes, really) still annoys the heck out of me though. Oh, and leaving out the Scouring of the Shire and killing Saruman off in Isengard (just before Pippin picks up the Palantir) was VERY BAD. The only thing worse I can imagine is making a Silmarillion movie (which is probably never going to happen) and leaving out the Oath. *knocks on wood*
Sorry, that was a bit cryptic.
The Silmfilm Project has a number of completed Silmarillion scripts with partial editing, and yes, we got the Oath in there. Not that the scripts will ever be films, but on the other hand, Fall of the Noldor was great fun to write (and War of Wrath almost more so - but that's not finished).
As far as I know, the Estate has steadfastly refused to give out the rights to Silm, so no, it won't happen.
hS
...that was...amazing... Okay, I just skimmed over your Fall of the Noldor, but still...wow. I still privately think of the meeting of Feanor and Finwe in Mandos in humorous terms ("Son, you are so grounded." :D), but that bit in the script was heartbreaking. Why is Fingon mentioning the sun in his song? You know, the "song of Valinor that the Noldor had made of old"...
I actually skipped two scenes in my original writing of FotN-H (the Kinslaying and the rescue of Maedhros), and we ended up with a song written specifically for that event - 'O my well-formed cousin, where art thou?' or somesuch.
I never liked it, and when I came back to reboot the Project, I edited it. Since I was unwilling to try and write my own song, I decided it would be a lovely homage to use Sam's song in the Orc tower - despite the slight canon-break involved.
I also wrote a Sindarin version of the song just to see if I could. Of course, at that point they'd be speaking Quenya anyway... but I spent my Quenya days translating Shakespeare.
hS
Are you saying you translated Shakespeare into Quenya? Awesome! Pretty much all the Quenya I know comes from the translations of the names. However, I can sing two versions of a popular song in it. Popular with Discworld Dwarfs, that is (gold, gold, gold, gold...) :D
I appreciate the sentiment in using Sam's song, but getting timelines wrong like that really annoys me. To be fair, we're so used to comparing things to the sun and it's movements that writing about the Years of the Trees requires looking everything over three times with only that in mind. At least. As for the "O, my well-formed cousin..." - good thing you scrapped that. The Maedhros/Fingon shippers would've gone crazy...
Mai lumbulilmë eféuyië
Á ista er sina ar ilya ná panyaina
Sa er olórië le sina nómessë
I lússë sínë olori tullë
Ar sina milya ar hessa quenta
Ú-anwa ve olor
Heri, áva nurrurlvë
Mai avatyaruvarllë mello, envinyatuvarlmë
Ar, mai nanyë manë Nermi
Mai haryarlmë váquetina valto
Sin usë i lambë lócë
Envinyatuvarlmë rato
Var i Nermi úvoronda esta
Ar mára lómë ellenin
Tana inyen már, mai narlvë meldor
Ar Nandin envinyatuva!
(Or, as the Bard would have put it, 'If we shadows have offended...')
As to Sam's song - believe me, I know it wouldn't make sense as a song of Valinor (although as I recall, the sun had already been up for about 25 years at this point). Since I don't know any songs from Valinor, I decided Fingon was either writing it on the spot or using a currently popular song - and at that time and in that place, 'Above all shadows rides the Sun' isn't just a comparison, it's a direct and tangible reference to the only (visible) support the Valar have given the Noldor since the exile. To give a meaning-filled prose paraphrase of that entire verse:
Even though we have left the Undying Lands and sentenced to everlasting exile,
And even though we are not only in the shadowed lands, but under the very shadow of Morgoth's hand,
And even though we are far beyond the reach of our people's power,
And even though the mountains separate us from our home - and even greater mountains from our ancient home...
We are not alone. The Light of the Trees now shines over the whole world,
And the stars which we are named for still burn - with the Sickle hanging high over our heads as a death sentence on Morgoth,
I will not give in to Morgoth's shadow and threat
And I will not forget who I am - a son of the sons of the Firstborn, who awoke in Middle-earth under the light of the eternal stars.
... you know what? There is no way that symbolism is accidental. Not for the specific Morgoth situation, but... that's an elven song. The idiom is absolutely not Hobbitish, or even Mannish. And given the way it's expressed - a memory of Valinor, a hope against the Shadow, and praise of the Sun - I'm going to say it was written in the first century after the First Dawn.
So no, according to the strict word of the (last rewriting of the) Silmarillion, it can't have been the song Fingon sang. But it still fits really well.
And if my theory's correct? That means the original version might possibly have looked something like this:
Anor dhosta or-dhuaithoth
Ah elenath hilar
Ú-bêdithan "i galad veth
"Ah in elin 'wannar..."
(Also known as 'the free translation that totally baffled Neshomeh since it throws some of the words into direct speech'. The back-translation is, roughly:
The sun burns above the shadowhost
And all the stars shine
I will not say 'the last Light
'And the stars are dying...'
In Sindarin, obviously.)
hS
Finally got my brain to cough it up, stupid brain. That was a good thread. We should revive it. [/not noticeably subtle]
So, guys, what's your favorite Tolkien song/poem? And, since we're talking about the movies, what's your favorite one PJ actually used? What about versions in other adaptations?
Mine is Sam's song from TTT, the one he sings while trying to find Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, which is sadly left out of the films. It is, however, included in the BBC radio adaptation by Brian Sibley & co., which is a very good adaptation that is responsible for most of my ability to quote from the books, since I listened to it over and over (and over and over and over) as a kid. I especially remember the songs—I might forget words, but I rarely forget a tune. I also really like "Upon the Hearth" (both versions) as sung in the radio play. It's so cheerful, and I think of it darn near every time anyone is trying to mobilize people out the door. "We must away, ere break of day..."
My favorite that's included in the films... well, we've covered the Lonely Mountain song and its awesomeness. From the LotR trilogy, I think my favorite moment is when Aragorn starts singing at his crowning. It's brief, but very moving. Pippin singing over the rout of Faramir and his men is also moving, but it's slightly ruined for me because they changed an important word, making it more depressing than it actually is.
Slightly tangential: did you guys know that Christopher Lee sings?
~Neshomeh
The Sindarin was... maybe a couple of hours work?
The Quenya, on the other hand, was basically a summer holiday project. Once I knew the grammar well enough (which took a few months, but the Ardalambion Quenya course is actually really good if you bother to do the questions), I basically went through If We Shadows one line at a time. I found that scribbling the key words... well, example time!
If we shadows have offended
The key words here are 'if', 'shadow' and 'to offend'. 'we', like most pronouns in Quenya, is a suffix, -lme [note: the umlauts over the e are non-essential: they're a reminder to English speakers that the e is pronounced), the plural 'shadowS' is also a suffix (either -i or -r depending on the noun - in this case it's -i), and 'have ...ed' is a tense, specifically the... past perfect, maybe? Which I can't remember how it works, since tenses are complicated. But at the time I had a notebook.
Checking the wordlist (also available on Ardalambion) gave 'Mai' for 'if', 'lumbule' for 'shadow' (specifically 'heavy shadow' - actually on reflection the best match for Puck's intent would probably be 'faire', meaning phantom), and 'feuya-' for 'to feel disgust at'.
'Mai' thus becomes the first word, Quenya sentence structure being similar to English. 'lumbul-i-lme' becomes the second word through the rules of grammar (you suffix the plural before the pronoun), and 'eféuyië' is third, through, apparently, changing the -a to an -ie, lengthening the stem vowel (the 'fEu'), and prefixing that same vowel to the whole word (for an analogous case, 'tulya-' becomes 'utulie' - in that case the -y- is dropped; I retained it because -euie is a stupid way to end a word). Thus we reach our final, slightly incorrect phrase: Mai lumbulilmë eféuyië, 'If we large patches of darkness have been disgusted by you'.
If I was a safe person to get talking about language, I wouldn't have this section on my website.
hS
I would do the course, if I had a computer...
For some reason, I was never too good at learning languages in school, but can recite the "One Ring to rule them all" couplet in three languages (English, German and Black Speech) when blind drunk. I've also learned a few words of Quenya just from the names of the members of the house of Finwe. Makes me feel a bit dumb when I look at your awesome work there and I'm still at "cane=commander, nare=fire" etc.
Technically, names in Quenya and Sindarin (and Adunaic, if you run into any Black Numenoreans) should be pronounced the same everywhere, since they're actual Middle-earth words, not translations. Dwarvish, Mannish, Hobbitish and Rohirric names are translations, so are open to alterations.
What this means is that 'Gandalf' is essentially an English word (actually adapted from a Norse name), and so can be said differently in another language. Mithrandir, by contrast, has specific pronunciation rules, as it's Sindarin.
Those rules don't always match English, either - Maedhros, for example, is 'Mai-th-ross', with a soft 'th' as in 'thistle'. An English speaker (or German, I suspect) would want to read it as 'Made-ross', or potentially 'My-dross'.
The biggest difficulty has always been elven dipthongs. So ai, au, eu, iu, oi and ui are each a single vowel in Quenya - but all other pairs of vowels are distinct sounds? Oh, yes, I can definitely remember that... not.
(Man, I'd forgotten how much fun this stuff is...)
hS
Yeah, the fact that the names are all translated is something one should remember when writing about someone suddenly appearing in Middle-Earth. Unfortunately, most people don't, especially Suethors. And then you also have to consider that "Sindarin" is, in fact, a Quenya word...
I'd gotten the "dh" rule memorised, my brain just keeps insisting on stuff like "Mä-thross" or "Mä-glin" (with German ä, of course), when it should be "Mai-thross" and "Mai-glin". Also, there's dear old E-ä-rendil... :-D
The thing is that the pronunciation's a lot easier for me when I'm talking about LotR in German. I'm not sure how to spell the differences phonetically, but Elrond, Aragorn, and Gondor are pretty much the most affected by whatever language I'm speaking.
According to the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals, Maedhros was was captured three years before Sunrise; he was rescued in the fifth Year of the Sun. The Noldor as a whole spent only about three years around Mithrim before he was rescued. Still, I think it works.
Hey, maybe Maglor wrote the song...?
hS
Didn't mean to imply that "Sam's song" was recent, I just get mad when I'm reading a fic that supposedly takes place during the Years of the Trees and a random comparison to a sunset or something appears. What kind of song Fingon actually sang isn't really important. He could have been singing the Elvish equivalent of "99 bottles of beer on the wall" for all we know...
I do wonder, though: with a year of the Trees being about ten years of the sun, how would the years between be counted? *tries to imagine Maedhros being held captive for over thirty years, fails, and settles for pitying him*
I think we're pretty much in lock-step about the LotR trilogy. The first one had some unexpected changes, but overall was pretty awesome and had me looking forward to the next... which crushed my soul. I, too, am still angry about Faramir—though at one point I read a very convincing essay stating that it was actually Frodo they messed up the most, and that Faramir acted the way he did because Frodo lied to him and was acting all cagey about why he was there, which was not the case in the books.
Also, the episode on the steps of Cirith Ungol bears out that theory. The real Frodo would never have done that to poor Sam. I actually cried at that, not because it was sad, but because it was so, so very wrong. {= (
That happened in RotK if I'm not horribly mistaken, so... while it's better than TTT because it has all the awesome stuff you mentioned (and I love the lighting of the beacons, too), I'd still rank it below FotR. There was too much implausible!Legolas and comic relief!Gimli, among other things that made it feel not quite right.
All in all, the bad things about the films rankle so much because they got the atmosphere mostly right. The music is awesome, the scenery is awesome, the costumes are awesome, the casting is awesome... but they had to go and mess with the characters and the story. *headdesk*
I haven't seen the fan films. Will have to investigate. I second the jealousy about you having castle ruins to play in, though. {; P
As for The Hobbit, as you know, we diverge somewhat. >.>
Having learned my lesson since LotR, I went into it more inclined to judge it as a film for its own sake than as an adaptation, since people seem to have a better time that way. Unfortunately, "as a film" is where I have some big problems with it.
It was nice to see some of the familiar things again, and I did get a warm fuzzy feeling when they played the Shire theme, and the Fellowship theme. It wore off somewhat when they didn't stop using those themes, though. I can't recall any original music apart from the Lonely Mountain song, which is awesome, and I liked it every time they used it again (including the end credits), but I really wanted more original scoring, less variation on the themes we'd heard before.
As for the rest, I thought the pacing was a mess, which prevented me from being able to enjoy the ride consistently. A lot of scenes dragged on too long and got boring, even some of the chase scenes. The one getting into Rivendell comes to mind—it felt too much like the one in Rohan for me, so it wasn't fresh or interesting, plus the problem with orcs/goblins/whatever running around in daylight, and Radagast on a bunny-sled. (I'm just glad no one fell into the river for a silly dream sequence this time.) Also the ones getting out of and away from the Misty Mountains. The chase under the mountains felt like one of those amusement park rides where you're in a theater and the seats are supposed to move to simulate an actual ride, and you get sprayed with water and stuff, only without all that, so it wasn't actually thrilling. Then, I felt like I was waiting forever for the Eagles to show up, and I know that's metagaming, but still, how long did they spend up those trees, while their leader was getting beaten up?
I also felt like they couldn't make up their mind whether the movie was supposed to be a comedy for kids, or a more-serious telling of the story that would fit nicely with the LotR trilogy. The quality, number, and choice of CG effects contributes to this. They also made it harder for me to suspend my disbelief and enjoy the story.
None of that is going to keep me from seeing the next ones, though. I'm still a Tolkien fan, even if a very disappointed and not particularly hopeful one at this point. At the very least, I think seeing the movies in the theater gives them the best possible chance of inspiring awe and wonder and other good things, which I would love to get from them. I just don't know if that's going to happen.
~Neshomeh
I'd managed to forget Radagast on the bunny sled. I liked it for the first couple of minutes because I was seeing all the shout-outs to Disney's version of The Once and Future King, and then it got old very, very fast when there was no longer anything to Radagast besides mildly earthy comic relief.
I know Saruman doesn't take him particularly seriously, but given that he, Gandalf, and Saruman are the only three wizards we ever see... I doubt Radagast is really so much of a one-trick pony.
If I had known it was about making people think about painfully odd choices of PJ's, I would have been more careful all these years. ^_~ If that's the case, does making someone aware of something odd they hadn't thought about before, like the Gandalf/Galadriel thing, count as extra-losing?
Turning characters into cheap comic relief is one of the things that most irritates me, actually. First it was Merry and Pippin, then it was Gimli, then Treebeard to an extent, and Gollum... and now Radagast. I mean, people don't have to be completely serious all the time, but I appreciate subtlety. For instance, I chuckled at Radagast's "These are Rhosgobel rabbits" line, because it seems like something he would actually say (even if the bunny sled itself is pretty silly). He's a master of birds and beasts, he knows what his critters can and can't do, and it was kind of fun to see Gandalf gently put in his place about matters in which he does not specialize. It shows Radagast in his element and Gandalf out of his, which we don't get to see much, but it doesn't take anything away from Gandalf, since he was just showing concern for his friend.
Most of Gimli's "jokes," by contrast, pretty much boil down to "lol, dwarves are short and prideful," sort of like most of Radagast's boil down to "lol, Radagast is a dirty hippie." Just... glah.
I follow the Pratchett school of humor: the laughs should come from the characters and the situation, not be forced on them from the outside.
~Neshomeh
I think some people were definitely too harsh about the films - such as P@L's dissections, which among other things gave TTT a lower score for character because Book!Boromir got full marks, but Movie!Boromir got zero for... y'know, being dead already... - but... yeah, FotR was definitely the best canon-wise. Although I still get teary-eyed at the (wildly uncanonical) beacon scene; good cinematography there.
But yeah. I'd managed to forget Frodo sending Sam away (and Sam GOING)... I've also recently seen a note that if Legolas could kill a Mumak with a single arrow, how did he send three into that Uruk-hai who blew up the Deeping Wall and not even slow it down...?
I have heard, actually, that there's a fan-edit which turns the three films into one single giant mostly-canonical one... I don't remember any details, though.
(Castles? Pictures of castles futher down! If you're ever in mid-Wales, go look them up)
As for UJ... sigh. I did enjoy it a lot in cinema, but that's a testament to the cinematographic art, not to the actual canonicity or even storytelling (it's been demonstrated over and over again that people will ignore any plotholes if you put enough stuff between the two halves). I do actually remember murmuring 'The Eagles are coming', and smiling... and then watching the whole tree-collapse/no-one-moves/Bilbo-Khan-to-the-rescue sequence with growing bewilderment.
"This wasn't in the book!"
"Tell me about it..."
(Anyone else remember 'The One Ring... To Rule Them All!'?)
I actually agree with you that they didn't exactly succeed at striking a balance between children's book and epic fantasy. I think they'd have been better aiming straight at 'homage-filled rationalising epic', because the pieces where they actually did that - Bilbo's pocket handkerchief springs to mind - were really good. The Rivendell Lancers, too - yes, it's a wonderful place, but no, the elves don't just hang around singing, their entire way of life is under permanent siege.
None of that is going to keep me from seeing the next ones, though.
"Be they friend or foe or demon foul
Of Morgoth Bauglir, be they mortal dark
That in after days on Earth shall dwell..."
hS
That's a good example of adaptation done right, IMO. It's an excellent use of the medium to show something that couldn't be done the same in text, and although it's a slight change, it doesn't alter the story and it adds a great sense of excitement and (brief) triumph.
Hm, I don't think I saw P@L's stuff. Marking down a dead guy for being dead doesn't really make sense, no. And isn't there a flashback scene with Faramir and Boromir in Movie!TTT? Or was that just the extended edition?
I think I remember "The One Ring To Rule Them All!", if it's the video in that link. It's funny either way. ^_^
I do like the Rivendell lancers, even though they also felt like Rohan Redux. I don't think too many people are probably missing "Tra la la lally down in the valley," either. {= )
It took me a while to work out what quoting the Oath means in this context, but I think you're saying that we're a small band of folk passionately devoted to something unto the bitter end, even if it's not necessarily good for us?
~Neshomeh
It'll be worth saving http://arthedain.netfirms.com/">the Arthedain Annex off so we don't lose this priceless memory of how badly some fans hated the films.
The specific thing I'm talking about is http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/arthedain/oatmeal.html">Enjoy Your Nice Oatmeal, Kids, And Stop Whining!, which is a breakdown of exactly why she hated everything about TTT-M (but not enough to not see RotK-M, of course...). I was actually wrong about the Boromir thing, but she's still... very harsh.
That's pretty much what I meant, yes (combined with Khaosity's interpretation). It's a bit sad, but honestly? Even if they killed Bilbo halfway through the next film, I'd probably still end up buying all three EEs. I may be a Middle-earth addict.
(It should be noted that I was recently given my second copy of the Bakshi movie. Yeah... that one I might give a miss)
hS
("What would Uncle Bilbo do in this situation?"
[Cut to 'The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins']
"Great. All we have to do is wait for Leonard Nimoy to show up with a bunch of hippy chicks to save the day.")
...that nothing is going to stop him from seeing the next movies, no matter how bad they end up being. Let's just hope he doesn't kill people to do it :-)
...because I watched the first two over the weekend and am in the process of watching Return of the King now. I've not read the books, despite having them, but after I've finished watching this and The Hobbit, I'll go back and read them all to see how they're different.
But while I'm here, I've fallen in love with this series. I usually can't stand long things, but after more than seven hours (why did I watch the extended editions?), I'm still not bored, somehow. The scenery is pretty, the soundtrack is pretty, Gandalf is pretty, the Balrog was pretty... Gimli is just plain adorable.
Anyway, I need to get back to the films. Gandalf just took Pippin to Minas Tirith. *munches on popcorn*
Well, I suppose now he's done his laundry...
Other than the things we complain about, the main difference between the books and the movies is that the books are rather more formal. Bear in mind that most of the characters we meet are nobility of various kinds, and even the ones who aren't - Frodo and Sam, Haldir, and... um... okay, that actually might be it except the Orcs - are well-bred (the beginning of The Hobbit makes it very clear the Bagginses are a very respectable family). The main exception is Sam (oh, and Gollum - though his grandmother was, according to Gandalf, 'a sort of local wise woman', so maybe even him), and of course the Orcs, so Sam tends to be a bit more casual than the other Hobbits, and the Orcs can be quite vulgar.
Throw in the fact that Tolkien was a) a linguist and b) born in the Victorian era, and you get a style of writing and speech that isn't used much today, even in High Fantasy. If you've read the Prydain Chronicles, it's the same sort of slightly-out-of-date feel (actually significantly more so, but I can't think of any other examples you might have run across). A lot of that's been... not modernised, but casualised in the movies.
Hey, anyone up for trying to name other non-'nobility' characters in Lord of the Rings? I'm sure there must be a couple...?
hS
I don't think a wise woman is nobility. Usually that's the kind of person who's accused of being a witch, living in a hovel on the fringe of society, dispensing strange medicines and homely advice, and sometimes assisting at births. At least, that's the impression I have.
... that Granny Gollum was essentially the village Matriarch. I may be wrong about that.
hS
Who befriends Pippin when he's being Denethor's Page in Minas Tirith. Um... I can't remember his name? Beregond. I'm fairly certain that he doesn't technically count...
Barliman. Any man of Bree (not that we see much of them...) and I don't think anyone else was mentioned.
There appear to be fewer non-noble or well-bred characters than female characters.
Of course, barely any of the Breemen are characters. Butterbur and Ferny, basically. A handful of others (Harry? Nob and Bob?) are named, but don't really do a whole lot.
hS
I guess if we're counting by individual book, they somewhat count, but overall, they're not important except for Butterbur, Ferny, and Harry at the gates. Now that I think of it, outside of Frodo's extended family and later Sam's extended family (does "becoming important in the Shire and founding an important family" count?) there aren't many Hobbits that can be said to be characters either. They're usually referred to as massive family groups, including Hornblowers and Proudfoots (Proudfeet!) and it's only some of the Tooks, some of the Brandybucks, and the Sackville-Bagginses that get more than a passing mention in a paragraph.
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins counts as a character for sure, though. She probably does count as well-bred, if ill-mannered.
So you do get a lot of yessirs from him, and it could get a tad stuffy in the end.
Um, all the non-nobility characters I can think of are the gossipmongers in the Shire in the first chapter. My brothers have taken my books, so I can't make certain. Oh, and Ted Sandyman wasn't very noble in the end, was he? Or Bill Ferny. But they're kinda antagonists. Tolkien's a bit classist with a liking for nobility isn't he?
Mr. Butterbur? He's the innkeeper and thus a fairly important guy, but not nobility by any stretch.
Also, there's... crud, what's his name, the guard Pippin palled around with in Minas Tirith and his son. B-names, both of them. I like them. Oh, and Ioreth in the Houses of Healing.
Are Merry and Pippin nobility, for that matter? I know they come from important families and later become important people in their own right, but they're basically presented just as Frodo's friends and cousins, aren't they?
Also in the Fellowship, I'm not sure Gimli qualifies as a noble. But then, I don't really know how the Dwarven court works.
There's got to be more, there are a ton of minor characters running around. What about Ents, do Ents count?
~Neshomeh, who hasn't read the books in a while.
... are, respectively, the heirs to the Master of Buckland and The Took, aka the Thain of the Shire. In their respective realms, that makes them effectively crown princes. Yes, that isn't talked about, but Frodo Baggins doesn't have ordinary friends.
Gimli... well, his father is a close advisor to both the first and second Restored King under the Mountain (and probably the third, for that matter). He also ends up as Lord of the Glittering Caves in his own right ("16. Though Moria is, by rightful ownership, Dain's, Balin nonetheless referred to himself as "Lord of Moria". Helm's Deep is clearly the property of the Rohirrim, being part of lands granted to them by Gondor long years ago, yet in Return of the King p. 360 hardback Gimli declares himself "Lord of the Glittering Caves". Explain the laws and history pertaining to Dwarven property rights, and how those differed from the customs of Elves and Men. For full credit your answer must also reconcile Dwarven property laws with the generous nature of Aule, the Dwarves' creator.") He's clearly nobility of some sort, even if we don't know what sort.
I'm sort of dubious about the Gondorians, too. We're never told Beregond, Bergil and Ioreth are nobility... but they're all so incredibly stuck-up and arrogant that they almost have to be. :P
Ents, of course, are (probably) minor deities. They count. ;)
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I'll give you Merry and Pippin once the Shire is officially recognized by Gondor. I don't think you can have nobility where there isn't a concept of it, though, and I don't think even the Tooks and Brandybucks thought of themselves that way in all that time without a king so much as knowing they existed.
Also, there's Fredegar "Fatty" Bolger, who was another of Frodo's friends. And there's Farmer Maggot and family. Oh, and Ted Sandyman. And the Cotton family! See, I knew there had to be more.
As for Ioreth, I'd peg her as one of the proud poor, myself. Stuck-up and arrogant, maybe, but I doubt she'd approve of anyone suggesting she was one of the nobs (and boy would they hear about it!).
Okay, we can count Ents. Ents are cool. {= )
~Neshomeh
Although I do have a strange idea of what is pretty sometimes.
I should probably find where the books have been hidden away and read them, then. It sounds like the sort of thing I'd like.
And on the topic of LotR, I found this picture in my bookmarks. I'm fairly certain tsundere!Eye of Sauron wasn't a thing, haha.
That's all I can think of now, tusndere Sauron crashing while shouting that. Because he's late to Evil Overlord school, being a disembodied eye.
And he'd have to use the Mouth of Sauron for toast-munching purposes.
... of the Tolkien Crackpot Theories list at Flying Moose of Nargothrond.
...
Wait.
Flying Moose.
Flying Moose.
Flying Moose!
Oh dear Iluvatar they were prophets!
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I'm rather excited for the next two Hobbit movies. The fact that the book was made into three movies seems to be a positive thing to me, since it means there's going to be enough time for everything.
The original trilogy was a bit of a disappointment in terms of loyalty to the original story, yes, but I can understand why they made things the way they were. Making a movie, even a three-hour-long movie, requires some cutting of content. Working with a different medium, one visual in nature, also requires some changes to the story. With Hobbit Part 1, they had to give the movie some sort of conflict other than Smaug, since Smaug wouldn't be showing up until the next movie ((and I keep wanting to spell Smaug as "Smaugh" and I don't know why :C)).
I'm trying to say that I think the movies are amazing on their own, and could stand alone if needed, and I am totally up for the 8-movie marathon. I'll bring the cookies.
... I also have higher hopes for canonicity in The Hobbit due to the length. Surely with that much space to play with, even PJ can't cut much out... right?
(Weird point: other than Peter Jackson and George Lucas, are there any other filmmakers who are so universally praised and despised for their films - usually by the same people?)
I discovered not too long ago (when I was actually looking it up for this very reason) that you can stream movies over Skype... although of course that would violate the no-broadcasting thing in the DVDs. But maybe PPCers could hold group-Skypes while watching our own DVDs...? I predict mad MSTing. ;)
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I have little to say on the overall topic other than intertwined squeeing and grumbling. I will nitpick the films till the cows come home, no doubt about it, but the overall story and the sheer beauty of the films have endeared them to me deeply. (My family knows what I'll be wanting for my birthday/Christmas whenever the DVDs are released.)
Regarding The Hunt for Gollum and Born of Hope, I have seen both and was extremely impressed with the quality given they are low-budget, fan-made films. Born of Hope, especially, has almost the same kind of quality that we came to see on Peter Jackson's own films (minus the bits of CGI, which weren't quite so good). The costumes (and prosthetics, the orcs were awesome!), the acting, the combat scenes, the consideration given to the storyline... it was very, very moving. And it shows Elladan and Elrohir! *squee!* They were very good. (Yes, okay, the film wedged in a bit of unrequited love, but I have to admit I sort of liked that.)
The Hunt for Gollum wasn't quite as good, in my opinion, mostly because Aragorn was too well-groomed. it's an odd thing to pick up on, I know, but he just wasn't quite scruffy enough to be convincing.
I'd still recommend them both to anyone who hasn't seen them.
I seem to recall watching the trailer for... one or the other and going, "Hey, that guy looks like he actually belongs in the woods, why is that... oh, wait. His clothes are actually dirty and worn." Having seen far too many people in sparkly new and doesn't work costumes, I was impressed.
(I'll still never understand why movies can make superhero costumes work but fans can't, though. I mean, Superman wears skintight lycra - why can only Holywood get that to look realistic?)
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My immediate thought is lucky you, getting to play hide-and-seek in the ruins of a castle. Not that I didn't have a few cool places to play hide-and-seek as a kid, but the principle remains the same.
I've also been trying to pretend that the oozing goblin king never existed, with varying degrees of success. But overall, there were only two points at which my family had to threaten to take me out of the theater during the Hobbit.
1)When I had a conniption fit about Orcs chasing Thorin and co. IN DAYLIGHT even before they got to Rivendell, when that undermines lines that they actually left IN the trilogy movies about west of Rivendell being mostly safe, and completely undermining the subtlety of the point about the Trolls, also rendering the escape from the goblins' mountain annoyingly stupid (they got as far as they did because the goblins didn't want to go out in the sun...)
2)The Gandalf/Galadriel shipping. You know the stuff. In the middle of the council scene. Yeah, it was nice to see her again, nice to see the council operating (though, they could have been less blatantly obvious about Saruman being evil: someday somebody might actually want to watch this series in chronological order, and they threw away a good chance for people to actually feel shocked and betrayed which just wasn't there in the books,) but her and Gandalf? Leaving aside the fact that she's a married elf and that the Maiar just... don't? Honestly, the introduction of Thorin's pretty dwarf girl of the past should have been enough shipping for one movie. (Dear Peter Jackson: you already have an enormous female fanbase for Lord of the Rings, and adding in random romances is not the only way to make a primarily action movie appeal to women.)
I used to be somewhat afraid of the Rankin Bass one. (Don't blame me, the anatomy-fail is fairly obvious...)
I ... did not read that as shipping, though, until now. I think I must've been blocking it out, because I do remember thinking the whole scene was really odd. >.married, for crying out loud! The Elves don't do affairs!
And yes, obvious Saruman is painfully obvious. And I hated that they rehashed his "your love of the Halflings' leaf has clearly clouded your judgement" line, only about Radagast and mushrooms. That made me groan. I was never a huge fan of the original line in the first place. I'm pretty sure there is something like it in the books, but it it's just so petty, the way he says it in the film.
Argh, I need to get another copy of the book so I can check these things. I loaned mine to a friend and one of us lost it.
~Neshomeh, who really wants one of the red leather-bound editions, which are expensive and hard to come by. Sigh...
Hmmm... I've got two possible candidates for when that line or something like it had happened in the books, and I think it's when they were standing on the steps of Orthanc, in which case I figure even the former head of the white council can resort to pettiness, given that a bunch of Ents just wrecked his fortress.
I can't block out the shipping anymore: my college friends have confiscated my anti-shipping goggles and they won't tell me where they hid them.
Galadriel in the Hobbit bugged me. I don't have a problem with Gandalf being unrequitedly infatuated, but I'm sure she could have done something more awesome than walk in circles around them and make bedroom eyes at Gandalf. She's legitimately fantastic, but they weren't in any hurry to show that.
Thus the talking in mind when moving around in circles. I think Gandalf felt very uncomfortable when he was being talked at by Galadriel.
And Gandalf was all... "Okay, this is awkward."
And she was all, "Oh, yes, Olorin, I remember you from the old days... you know, back when you were just another anonymous Maia... hey, do you remember how you all used to tease us when we were small children, with all that 'Here I am, oops, no, that's an intangible illusion I'm actually over here'? It's payback time..."
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I keep getting flabbergasted by how long everyone on that council has known each other...
And that's why I think PJ missed a great opportunity to have Saruman be more subtle and them still trust him and respect him even if they disagree (which has to have happened before,) because it would be such amazing context for the look of betrayal on Gandalf's face when Saruman attacks him in Fellowship.
But I think PJ sees this as a continuation of the trilogy rather than an exploration of it's history, so that might explain both the missed opportunity and a lot about how he chose to present The Hobbit in the first place. Most of us probably started with The Hobbit: I know I did.
I wonder how often Elrond feels like a little kid there? "Well, here's two guys who've known each other literally since before the world began... here's a (scary) lady who happens to be my mother-in-law and is older than the sun..." I mean, she grew up with his great-grandparents (Turgon and... well, possibly not Elenwe, I think she was a Vanya).
But on the other hand, his Dad's a star who Galadriel likes enough to give little bits of to the Ringbearer in a bottle.
Oh, and I see Cirdan's on the White Council too... you know, the one who was there when Galadriel's grandfather crossed the Sea...
I do note (I'd forgotten) that Saruman is Head of the Council against the express wishes of Galadriel, who wanted to put Gandalf in that position. Apparently Saruman never trusted Gandalf (or, we can assume, Galadriel) after that. That actually makes that scene work better, since we essentially have two factions at play - Saruman and his presumed supporter Elrond (neither of whom want to mess with the status quo - I forget Elrond's view on the Dol Guldur issue in the film, but he was pretty clearly against the dwarves mucking around with dragons), and the G-Team, who are engaging in sneaky discussions behind their backs.
hS
I do wonder if he ever gets to talk to his dad after sailing west. Depends on whether stars get "bring your kid to work day" or not...
(In case anyone doubted me...)
This is a screencap from about a minute into the HfG trailer.
This is me and Kaitlyn in the same location, in the summer of 2010.
This is a wider-angle shot of that side of the castle, with a very tiny image of my mother, and an even tinier image of my son, who will be the next one to play hide and seek there.
And this is a Google view of the whole site. The arrow points to the round tower visible on the left of all the pictures - the arched doorway is immediately above it.
Castell y Bere, pronounced approximately 'Castle-uh-Burruh'. It took us years to break the habit of 'Cast-el-ee-Bear'.
hS
Particularly that one.
1/ ... you know, I'd actually managed to forget the daylight Orcs. I... huh. Unless they were trying to say that Orcs would brave sunlight but goblins wouldn't, I don't think there's a good answer to that.
2/ I wonder (and it's obviously been months since I saw it) to what extend Hobbit!Saruman will come across as 'evil', and to what extent 'incompetent'. But... oh, two things:
2a/ "The Maiar just... don't?" Oh, go tell Melian and Thingol that. I dare you.
2b/ Given Galadriel's original names were Artanis 'Noble Woman' and Nerwen 'Man-maid'... I'm just going to go on the theory that the whole 'war and terrible danger' thing is her biggest turn-on. ;) It would certainly make sense of her history:
-Absolutely hated Feanor but wanted to go to Middle-earth anyway for kicks.
-Got involved in the Kinslaying at Alqualonde - as the only future Exile on the Telerin side.
-Went out to live with the generally-disliked Thingol.
-Wandered off into the wilderness to the east during the First Age.
-Accepted and kept a magic ring even though the Dark Lord wanted it and could potentially use it to keep track of her.
-Built herself (or stole for herself) a very obvious kingdom right between the often-hostile Dwarves (of Khazad-Dum, later to be replaced by always-hostile Orcs) and the Dark Lord's fortress of Dol-Guldur...
... yeah, even without the flirting I'm seeing someone who desperately loves the dangerous life, and is probably dying of boredom in Lorien. And now there's a chance of a war right on her doorstep...
hS
(Seriously, though, Artanis is brilliant. One of my favourite characters)
1/ I think PJ got confused.
2a/ I'd forgotten them, to be honest. Still, I'd like to hope that wise old Gandalf still remembers how to prioritize...
2b/ Are we certain that PJ knows she's married, anyway? But yeah, I agree that she's probably dying for some excitement, since she seems to thrive on it, and Lothlorien seems to be something of a sleepy place, of late. Also, with her old history, I just bet she's primed and waiting for one of their old enemies to show up so that she can kick their ass. :)
No wonder it's a quiet place.
You forgot about us? I suppose we're not important enough to remember? I mean, I was only king for thousands of years in hostile territory. I only stood as a bulwark against the rogue Vala Morgoth Bauglir to protect the whole world from destruction. And you forgot about me? I bet you didn't forget that reprobate of a descendent of mine, Aragorn-of-many-names, King of a whole lot of emptiness with nothing to defend it against?
Elu, dear, you're shouting again...
Well, I know, but really! We-
You're scaring the nightingales, dear.
... yes, Melian my love. I'm sorry
I am in the midst of writing thesis, live on tea and anxiety, and woke up this morning thinking it was October. (No idea why: the weather's amazing and my window was open.) It's no reflection on you, really. :D
And this comes from me, a Feanatic. The House of Finwe is a highly dysfunctional family anyway. At least Artanis Nerwen has a name which suits her and makes some sense, unlike her poor cousin "Hair Commander/Shout" Findekano aka Fingon. Poor guy :-)
Seriously? You like House Feanor? 'The Dispossessed'? The Kinslayers? House 'My shiny Jewels are worth more than your entire way of existence'? House 'Let's all camp out and glower at Morgoth for four hundred years while everyone else does the work, then still get beaten into mud, run away, and go scrounge off our relatives until we can get them kicked out of their homes and sent to die at the hands of the Lord of Wolves'?
... yeah, I have a grudge against House Feanor. They killed my king and I still haven't forgiven them.
:P
hS
I should point out that I'm really only a fan (albeit a huge one) of Maglor, Maedhros and, of course, Feanor himself (in that order). My feelings about the rest vary from "meh" to "go do something unpleasant to yourself". Well, and there's a "poor guy" for whichever of the twins (opinions vary, I thought it was Amras) gets burnt in HoME-verse. Maybe Feanatic is the wrong description for me.
Also, I'm perfectly capable of liking characters a lot without thinking everything they do is great. Heck, Sirius was my Potterverse favorite for the longest time, and I always thought trying to feed Snape to a werewolf was nasty of him.
Wait a moment... My favorite Silmfics concern the House of Feanor. My favorite Potterfics concern the House of Black. Something is terribly wrong with me o_O
http://gold-seven.deviantart.com/
She's even spent hours figuring out everyone's hair color, and there's bonus horses. They're lovely horses. :D
I'm gonna go read the Silmarillion again, soon as I get my hands on a copy.
The artist is really good, the facial expressions are amazing, I JUST WANT TO HUG THEM ALL! Ahem. I loved some of her notes on the pictures. "Feanorians don't get 'get well' cards, they get 'get well' swords." :-D (I still feel the urge to cut a few inches off Maglor's hair and make them into extensions for Feanor, though ^.^)
The watercolor techniques are also so drool-worthy... all I can do with watercolors is make weirdly-shaped flower petals.
I've always particularly loved this (because Amarie/Finrod is my OTP ;)), and this... and most of the others... actually, in general, the fact that she (?) wasn't afraid to not give them all standard Long Flowing Elf-Locks All The Time.
I also like the fact that someone else noticed Maglor's three(ish) years as High King... although I highly doubt anyone listened to him. Poor Maglor (the only Feanorion I have a soft spot for)
hS
