Subject: Hm...
Author:
Posted on: 2008-07-14 04:11:00 UTC
And while we're speaking of Myst, we probably shouldn't forget Marrim and Anna. ;-)
Subject: Hm...
Author:
Posted on: 2008-07-14 04:11:00 UTC
And while we're speaking of Myst, we probably shouldn't forget Marrim and Anna. ;-)
...even though this is 2 years after the original post...
ANGUA ALL THE WAY!
Sybil too. But Angua is priceless. And Angua+Carrot, while just two rather minor characters in the Discworld scheme of things, beats every Twilight couple you can think of down and out of the door and plopping right into the sewer...
Eh, I got carried away with the metaphor there.
She packs the biggest hand cannon in the Firefly-verse and is badass to the nth degree. I agree with Leto's assessment that River isn't necessarily because of her mentally-damaged state, though.
How about, just putting a few randoms out there - Princess Fiona from the Shrek series (I mean, she kicks the arses of all of Robin Hood's merry men in the original, for one)? Hana Gitelman from Heroes (ex-Mossad with the ability to manipulate electric information etc.)? Ziva David from NCIS (just awesome)? Sydney Bristow from Alias? Fiona from Burn Notice? Lara Croft, Tomb Raider?
Zoe's pretty bad-ass throughout the Firefly series. It makes me wonder how Wash lucked out so much.
... just not in the same way.
Also ... not bad looking. And pilots are like lead guitarists. That's CURRENCY (to quote Devon off Buffy)
I mean (especially in the video games) she's endowed. And I mean seriously. To the point where it would get in the way. Character, yes, a warrior woman, but the model-like figure gets a bit close to Sue-dom for me.
(Please angry fans don't kill me.)
But she's a well-balanced character, can kick the arse of any guy who comes her way, doesn't stray into angst or violent femme fatale territory (well, maybe in Angel of Darkness), and did help pioneer strong female lead characters in video games. Surely all that overwhelms any criticism her, ahem, ample assets generate?
Which is a bad thing to base judgments on, I know. You're probably right; I just hate that women have to be beautiful on television before they can be strong. You never see ugly heroines.
On television at least.
Okay, technically it wasn't until I was on the train and thus without access to a computer, but I was right about remembering at an inconvenient moment.
Juanita (Nita) Callahan (Young Wizards; Diane Duane) Technically the wizards of this series are "in the service of life", and thus not supposed to kill, but in several of the books Nita ends up having to fight - most notably, the fourth (A Wizard Abroad, in which she and a horde of Irish wizards have to fight a bunch of nasties from Irish mythology) and the eighth (Wizards at War; as you may be able to guess from the title, there's fighting in it. This one makes a great deal of use of the magic particle accelerator introduced in book 5.)
Good thought! Don't forget Dairine and their mom, though. And Kit's sister Carmela. And the Hesper, who fought an entirely different sort of battle. And, well, it's another good continuum for strong women, isn't it?
~Neshomeh
Peach is great, though she's more of an It. Biddy too, though she doesn't have a very big part in the series.
It's very irritating when people insist that Dairine is a Sue, on the grounds that she's really smart and an incredibly powerful wizard. She's not exactly flawless--and she's spent the past few books dealing with not being WonderKid but not knowing how to do much little, detailed stuff.
Or, in other words, Diane Duane is awesome.
Aeryn Sun kicks butt. Actually, so do most of the women on that show. Chiana has her ways, Zhaan will take you down if you're really annoying, Sikozu (although Not Nice), Jool... eh, well, Jool. ^_^; Anyway, Aeryn is just particularly awesome in that regard.
~Neshomeh
But Samantha Carter from Star Gate. She is a genius and she can gun sling with the best of them.
L
Lúthien Tinúviel! I can't believe I forgot her!
Let's see, who else?
Polgara, from David Eddings' Belgariad, and Sephrenia from his Elenium series. Both are sorceresses with a lot of inner strength- they have motherly attitudes towards their companions, but they're very independent. They aren't warriors- Sephrenia is physically unable to stand the touch of iron or steel- but they can hold their own in a struggle.
And I'd agree with some of the others in this thread, too. Won't say which ones.
Of course Yuuko is in there! *is not able to fully explain admiration of Yuuko*
Meilin, I really liked after the Twin cards. I think her loyalty is impressive.
I already had quite a bit of respect for her but after Syaoran told her he liked Sakura... She handled that very well, didn't she? Wished him the best and waited until she was safely in Tomoyo's arms to burst into tears. She even gave Syaoran advice and gave Sakura hints that he liked her! The female characters who are in love with male characters destined to end up with another are very rarely handle rejection well and are very rarely even taken seriously. I was happy with Meilin. I can't believe she never showed up in TRC.
I am not surprised you cannot explain your admiration of Yuuko. It's difficult enough explaining Yuuko at all.
Éowyn (LotR), Mariel (Redwall), Leela (Doctor Who), Kale (DragonKeeper Chronicles), Mara Jade Skywalker (Star Wars), Colonel Kira (Star Trek), Firebird Caldwell (Firebird Series), Molly Weasley (Harry Potter), Orual (Till We Have Faces)
Finally, a fellow-lover of fantasy allegory. Meheheh. I don't suppose you've gotten around to the Screwtape Letters?
"NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!"
Best Harry Potter moment ever.
And Éowyn and Zoe Washbourne should never, ever meet. They'd take over the 'verse.
Rachel and Cassie (Animorphs), Katran (Myst), Hartanna (Dragons in out Midst), and let us not forget the thousands in the PPC.
And while we're speaking of Myst, we probably shouldn't forget Marrim and Anna. ;-)
Second best, actually. Haleth is the best.
I think Mara Jade is sometimes a Sue, depending on who's writing her. Zahn in particular seems in love with her. She's usually cool, though.
Lobelia Sackvilleville-Baggins, Umbrella-wielder of the Shire!
...from the Firefly-verse. You don't get much more warrior than that. (Of course, some of that is lost when River goes all kickass with any and all available weaponry. And no armor...)
Others...I agree Tamora Peirce's character often fit that category. Angua from the Discworld series is that way as well. (Pratchett is VERY careful to avoid the scantily-clad warrior woman, ahaha.)
Well I agree with you about Zoe, I don't about River. The reason being, River is clinically insane. She was made into a clinically insane assassin and trained in the way of assassination through phycotropic drugs and a training regiment, her ability didn't come out over night (though it donsn't hurt to have mind reading ability.)
Leto
Tamora Pierce was who I thought of first, particularly Kel. I think Kel sorta fits the exact model all authors should aim for with women warriors (In Middle Age Time Periods anyway). She had to work damn hard to gain her skills, and even then she sucks at a few.
I think Rosethorn and Daja can also fit into this category. While Rosethorn doesn't actually fight with martial weapons, she does kick ass when it comes to magical fighting, something which took her years to do as well. Lark confuses me, because she has one of the idealic 'Sue pasts. Came to her magic late, but turns out to be a Great Mage... Go figure.
Daja really goes without saying. While she does use her magic to fight, it isn't often. If anything, she uses it only for her own, small conveniences, like adjusting her body temperature. She's a fair fighter. She sorta offsets the 'Sueish traits that Tris and Sandry have too.
...while I'm a big Keladry and a milder Alanna fan, I always thought Daine was a big ole Sue. In fact, I should try her out on an Original Fiction Sue Test.
But the one who rocks harder than them all is Buri. I hope she has her own spin-off in the future.
I agree about Daine. Which is why I didn't list her. Same with Thayet.
I'd forgotten about Buri! *headdesk* Yes, she does rock them all. ;-)
how about Daja Kisubo? OKay so being a warrior isn't her main thing, but she can fight well (even without her magic), and she's definitely not a primarily beautiful or graceful kind of a girl :)
Yes, we haven't actually seen her fight but we've seen her bankai and we know she's powerful. She rules her division with an iron fist (even the 11th is scared of her) yet her division still loves her and she clearly loves them. She's strong, intelligent, independent, one of the oldest captains and she never even threatens a single soul while carrying out her duty. She also braids her hair in a practical, if slightly unusual, style. ^_^ I'm rather fond of her, you might have guessed.
I'll add Menolly and most of the Headwomen--Hall, Hold, and Weyr--for the more average Pernese women. They aren't warriors, but you can't tell me Manora and Silvina aren't awesome.
~Neshomeh
for continuing to live on and stay strong even though she lost Wirenth. She could easily have turned out like Kylara or committed suicide, but she didn't.
More than two years late, I realise that I confused two characters by the name of "Mara" here - when I first mentioned the name, upthread, I was referring to Mara of the Acoma, from the Feist/Wurts Empire series. The second time, in the second post, I must have been befuddled, because I was talking about Mara Jade from the Star Wars EU. Heh.
Well, I imagine no one will notice this now, nor care, since this thread is so old that no one will ever see the update. Still, I wanted to say it. :)
"If they're strong, the fanbrats claim they're 'sluts' or 'overpowered Mary Sues'. If they're not strong, the fanbrats whine about how there are no good female characters in the fandom."
In my real life, I have no great desire to change the world or have a high-powered job or great athletic skills; all I want is to make enough money to have a house and kids (and cats) and to enjoy my life from day-to-day. When I say this to some - many - people, I get very strange looks.
It's not that I don't want to do well - I'm planning to do post-grand and masters here in uni, and that's no small accomplishment - but that the "classic" woman that so many people call oppressed is what I really do want to be; I can still be outspoken, but no one seems to realise that. It's as though being a mother isn't difficult enough to be respected anymore. *sigh*
As in, a lot of people will insist that a female character is a Sue because she has all the l33t skills - but fail to regard that everyone else in the fandom source material has them as well.
I've seen people complain that she's Sueish because of all the unfeasibly cool stuff she does. Disregarding, of course, that everyone does unfeasibly cool stuff in the PoTC films (if they didn't, the movies would be very boring).
image of Must Be Strong, and now we've got an overabundance of Soppy or Sentimental Male Leads, and every time a man leans towards the old sterotype, he runs the risk of being criticised (mostly by women) as a nasty bastard. *sigh* It's a shame.
"Soppy" isn't right, either. But I definitely hate the Macho Male type...
I loved The Family Tree. One of my favorite books ever. (And a completely awesome twist near the end ^^ )