Subject: I was thinking of Elizabeth Swann.
Author:
Posted on: 2008-07-11 22:37:00 UTC
I've seen people complain that she's Sueish because of all the unfeasibly cool stuff she does. Disregarding, of course, that everyone does unfeasibly cool stuff in the PoTC films (if they didn't, the movies would be very boring).
She's brave. She's graceful. She hasn't got a stitch on.
Many OCs we see shoved awkwardly into fanfic fit this description:
Mary Sue the Warrior is well known for unrealistic clothing, but you'd think that she'd at least cover up enough so that her vital areas aren't exposed in battle. Not so. While Warrior Sue is often armed to the perfect sparkling teeth with swords too heavy and weapons too awkwardly placed to reach, she fails to dress in the kind of outfit that would actually protect her from harm.
Armor and fighter clothes must be practical before they can be aesthetic. Gauntlets are not something you put on because they make you look sexy when you fight. Also, long flowing hair isn't a good idea—it's liable to get caught, pulled, or blown in one's face, obscuring the vision.
Why doesn't her profession come before her perm?
_____
The physical description is just the tip of the iceberg, but since we can all remember instances of more painful canon warping, I thought I'd let you off easy.
The sad thing is, the woman warrior has the potential to be a symbol of power and independence for women. It can possibly break a lot of molds around stereotypes of women. Yet Suethors take the idea and turn it into one big cliche. Even worse, these strong-willed women are usually bashed or warped in fanfiction, which makes them into weeping romantics or violent femme fatales.
Now, considering how much we all love good stories, we must have run into really awesome warrior women in our reading or viewing the canon we love. So, PPCers...let us know how it should be done! (You can name someone from literature/movies/TV, or even a goodfic OC, if there's one to be found. Historical figures, unless they're from historical fiction, don't count.) Pick a non-Sue woman warrior, and show the canon love. I'll post this to the PPC LJ entry after we're done.
I will, of course, contribute myself, but I want to see what you guys come up with.
... but the character of Sentinel Sarah Lyons from Fallout 3 certainly stands out as an intereting example. She's down to earth, frank (in her own manner) and she's no slouch in a fight (though that full-body suit of T-45 power armour and her decade or so of training certainly helps). Heck, she's even in a position of power - commander of an elite strike force of the Brotherhood of Steel and the second-highest ranking person within her chapter.
Best of all, in my opinion - she may fight alongside you if you are of good heart, but SHE ISN'T A ROMANCE OPTION (sorry for the caps). This was one of the first occasions in my 10 or so years of video-gaming life when I found this cliche broken in a role-playing game.
I'm not sure whether I could cite any particular faults, but one that can stand out is her fool-hardyness - she's generally level-headed, but dangle a crisis in front of her and she'll be filing a request for an asignment instantly to her superiors. This, more often then not, causes her to have to speak with her father (the Eldar of the chapter, no less) and she usually is convinced to stand down.
...even though this is 2 years after the original post...
ANGUA ALL THE WAY!
Sybil too. But Angua is priceless. And Angua+Carrot, while just two rather minor characters in the Discworld scheme of things, beats every Twilight couple you can think of down and out of the door and plopping right into the sewer...
Eh, I got carried away with the metaphor there.
Buffy Summers, Vampire Slayer.
Xena, Warrior Princess.
Samus, bounty hunter.
Susan Pevensie, formerly Queen of Narnia.
The PPC Agents on here.
I'd list more, but I've been typing some other stuff up. I really don't wanna get carpal tunnel syndrome.
Katara, from Avatar the Last Airbender. Admittedly, she goes around in some pretty aesthetically-pleasing costumes, but most of them are flexible so as to be functional when waterbending. She's beautiful, smart, a master of her element, and she managed to transcend some ugly gender stereotypes in her art. She also has a hot temper, but she doesn't get away with mouthing off by any means. She has made some horrible choices in men, resulting in a couple messy break-ups, but instead of laying around feeling angsty about her life, she learns from her mistakes and eventually ends up with one of the most decent guys on the show. All in all, she's awesome.
From the same show, there's Toph Bei Fong. She's also a pretty young woman, and she's overcome her blindness by developing an awesome method of echolocation, even managing to bend metal, previously unheard of in earthbending. She still makes little mistakes due to blindness (like pinning up posters backward), but when she realizes she makes them, she owns up to them and goes on with life. She possesses a cruel sense of humor, which her friends call her out on even though she's completely unrepentant, and she's very bull-headed, which leads to some justifiable tension in the group. But she doesn't make excuses for herself because she is blind or because she's a girl or because she has a very bad past with her parents...rather, she owns her issues, and grows as a person because of it.
Ooh, my newly-developed ATLA obsession is showing. But while I'm here...
Fujioka Haruhi of Ouran High School Host Club. At the beginning of the story, she is a commoner who is admitted into a very prestigious high school for rich kids, because she did the hard work and earned a scholarship to go there. She comes into a school with short hair and somewhat androgynous looks, and everybody thinks she's a boy. Then, she's found out by the local club of extremely gorgeous man-meat boys, and, since she owes them several thousand yen's worth of favors, she is compelled to work for them, disguising herself as a boy. Secretly, all the boys are in love with her, each in their own way, but they treat her like an equal instead of putting her on a pedestal (except for one, but he's a bit nuts). She's not a romantic at all, settles into the club like she would a job, and tries not to let her secret out...by which is meant that she doesn't go around matchmaking, but actually, genuinely, tries to avoid any unnecessary attention whatsoever. Eventually, the club needs her dry sense of humor and down-to-earth personality just to keep running. And she's awesome!
Because.
Dude.
Just.
Kill Bill.
And, well, Eowyn. Duh. And...um...pretty much everything everyone else said.
*pointless late post is pointless*
C.C, Kallen, Cornelia, Sayako and Anya from Code Geass are all strong warriors, in their different disciplines (ninja!Sayako FTW). Not to mention the fact that C.C seems to be completely frikin immortal and has the healing ability of Wolverine.
Relena, Noin, Sally, Hilde, Dorothy and Une from Gundam Wing are all strong women, even if they're not all warriors in the traditional sense. Relena especially, has the strength to try and change the world even while everything is falling apart around her.
Sumeragi, Nena and Soma from Gundam 00 are all strong as well. Again, not all of them are directly involved in the fighting, but they are capable of holding their own in what is definitely a man's world.
She packs the biggest hand cannon in the Firefly-verse and is badass to the nth degree. I agree with Leto's assessment that River isn't necessarily because of her mentally-damaged state, though.
How about, just putting a few randoms out there - Princess Fiona from the Shrek series (I mean, she kicks the arses of all of Robin Hood's merry men in the original, for one)? Hana Gitelman from Heroes (ex-Mossad with the ability to manipulate electric information etc.)? Ziva David from NCIS (just awesome)? Sydney Bristow from Alias? Fiona from Burn Notice? Lara Croft, Tomb Raider?
Zoe's pretty bad-ass throughout the Firefly series. It makes me wonder how Wash lucked out so much.
... just not in the same way.
Also ... not bad looking. And pilots are like lead guitarists. That's CURRENCY (to quote Devon off Buffy)
I mean (especially in the video games) she's endowed. And I mean seriously. To the point where it would get in the way. Character, yes, a warrior woman, but the model-like figure gets a bit close to Sue-dom for me.
(Please angry fans don't kill me.)
But she's a well-balanced character, can kick the arse of any guy who comes her way, doesn't stray into angst or violent femme fatale territory (well, maybe in Angel of Darkness), and did help pioneer strong female lead characters in video games. Surely all that overwhelms any criticism her, ahem, ample assets generate?
Which is a bad thing to base judgments on, I know. You're probably right; I just hate that women have to be beautiful on television before they can be strong. You never see ugly heroines.
On television at least.
Kerowyn, Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books. Mercenary captain (it took her an altogether appropriate length of time to train and work her way to that position), Herald of Valdemar, owner of a magic sword that's really inconvenient to its bearer. The pb cover annoys me (to the extent that I wrote a term paper on it), because the picture has her in a silly, silly suit of armor with long flowing hair, etc. that she would never wear.
Likewise her teacher, the Shin'a'in Tarma. Goddess-bonded warrior. Celibate, sarcastic swordswoman.
Mirax Terrik, Star Wars. She's primarily a smuggler, but her cleverness, resource, and common sense sometimes end up in a firefight, where she keeps her cool well.
Polly Perks, Discworld. She is a soldier. That's really all there is to it. She is a successful (i.e. passing) crossdresser, but doesn't turn into a bombshell when in girly clothes.
---
I would just like to put in a plug for a series of anthologies related to this. The first is called "Chicks in Chainmail" and they are edited by Esther Friesner. They deal with exactly this topic--how to write the warrior woman without turning her into a pinup girl or losing her sense of humor. They're hilarious, frankly, and well written.
Kylara Vatta (Vatta's War; Elizabeth Moon) attended Space Force Academy and then, sometime in her last semester, got kicked out for political reasons. She rejoins her family's space shipping business shortly before it is attacked and nearly destroyed by a coalition of pirates, whom she eventually manages to build up a force to defeat. Also, she often wears a spacesuit (really the only thing reasonable when you're in a spaceship that could get blown up).
Paksenarrion Dorthansdotter (The Deed of Paksenarrion; Elizabeth Moon) A shepherd's daughter fleeing an unwanted marriage joins a mercenary company. The books were written as a rebuttal to how the author was told paladins in role-playing games were often played, so Paks is unfailingly humble and, though she eventually succeds at most of her aims, goes through a lot of grief (including four straight days of torture).
Firekeeper (Firekeeper Saga; Jane Lindskold) A girl raised by (sentient) wolves is found by an expedition that set out to find the village founded by a disinherited prince (because his father is getting old, his siblings are dead, and his daughter is technically the next in succession). Her only posessions are a dagger and a set of flint and steel, both of which she is quite proficient at using. Although she is clever, she's also quite savage and has several opportunities to learn the value of armor. (Naturally, growing up in a forest had already taught her the value of short hair, and she did have that dagger to cut with.)
There was someone else, whom I will doubtless remember as soon as I post.
Okay, technically it wasn't until I was on the train and thus without access to a computer, but I was right about remembering at an inconvenient moment.
Juanita (Nita) Callahan (Young Wizards; Diane Duane) Technically the wizards of this series are "in the service of life", and thus not supposed to kill, but in several of the books Nita ends up having to fight - most notably, the fourth (A Wizard Abroad, in which she and a horde of Irish wizards have to fight a bunch of nasties from Irish mythology) and the eighth (Wizards at War; as you may be able to guess from the title, there's fighting in it. This one makes a great deal of use of the magic particle accelerator introduced in book 5.)
Good thought! Don't forget Dairine and their mom, though. And Kit's sister Carmela. And the Hesper, who fought an entirely different sort of battle. And, well, it's another good continuum for strong women, isn't it?
~Neshomeh
Peach is great, though she's more of an It. Biddy too, though she doesn't have a very big part in the series.
It's very irritating when people insist that Dairine is a Sue, on the grounds that she's really smart and an incredibly powerful wizard. She's not exactly flawless--and she's spent the past few books dealing with not being WonderKid but not knowing how to do much little, detailed stuff.
Or, in other words, Diane Duane is awesome.
Aeryn Sun kicks butt. Actually, so do most of the women on that show. Chiana has her ways, Zhaan will take you down if you're really annoying, Sikozu (although Not Nice), Jool... eh, well, Jool. ^_^; Anyway, Aeryn is just particularly awesome in that regard.
~Neshomeh
I'd like to list both Kathryn Janeway and B'Ellana Torres of Star Trek Voyager. And Karrin Murphy of Dresden Files. I've only (nearly) read one of the books, but I think she would qualify.
All three women have in common that they are strong, but also have their weaknesses, which they try to cover up to prevent from being exploited. You know, like real women do.
There are warrior!Sues in the fandoms I read in, but since those fandoms are about 20th/21st century Earth based military (like) these Sues generally manage to wear something appropriate in battle.
But Samantha Carter from Star Gate. She is a genius and she can gun sling with the best of them.
L
I already mentioned Captain Unohana but there's also Yaone from Saiyuki and Meilin from Card Captor Sakura. Both of them tend to play second to their male teammate(s) in battle but they both have strong hearts and are perfectly capable of defending themselves. Though Yaone's outfit is some cause for concern it isn't nearly as bad as some Warrior Sue's. Meilin doesn't have any magic yet she still follows Syaoran to Japan to capture the Clow Cards and her martial art skills are very strong. But more than that she has a strong personality. She's very determined but also rather kind (even to Sakura, who she thinks it Syaoran's rival and there for an opponent). To me a strong female character isn't just defined by how good she is in battle. If we take battle ability out of the equation I'd like to throw another name into the pot: Yuuko Ichihara.
Oh, I just thought of a real Warrior Woman. Android 18 from DBZ. She beat Vegeta easily and she did it without being a 'Sue.
Lúthien Tinúviel! I can't believe I forgot her!
Let's see, who else?
Polgara, from David Eddings' Belgariad, and Sephrenia from his Elenium series. Both are sorceresses with a lot of inner strength- they have motherly attitudes towards their companions, but they're very independent. They aren't warriors- Sephrenia is physically unable to stand the touch of iron or steel- but they can hold their own in a struggle.
And I'd agree with some of the others in this thread, too. Won't say which ones.
Of course Yuuko is in there! *is not able to fully explain admiration of Yuuko*
Meilin, I really liked after the Twin cards. I think her loyalty is impressive.
I already had quite a bit of respect for her but after Syaoran told her he liked Sakura... She handled that very well, didn't she? Wished him the best and waited until she was safely in Tomoyo's arms to burst into tears. She even gave Syaoran advice and gave Sakura hints that he liked her! The female characters who are in love with male characters destined to end up with another are very rarely handle rejection well and are very rarely even taken seriously. I was happy with Meilin. I can't believe she never showed up in TRC.
I am not surprised you cannot explain your admiration of Yuuko. It's difficult enough explaining Yuuko at all.
Éowyn (LotR), Mariel (Redwall), Leela (Doctor Who), Kale (DragonKeeper Chronicles), Mara Jade Skywalker (Star Wars), Colonel Kira (Star Trek), Firebird Caldwell (Firebird Series), Molly Weasley (Harry Potter), Orual (Till We Have Faces)
Finally, a fellow-lover of fantasy allegory. Meheheh. I don't suppose you've gotten around to the Screwtape Letters?
"NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!"
Best Harry Potter moment ever.
And Éowyn and Zoe Washbourne should never, ever meet. They'd take over the 'verse.
Rachel and Cassie (Animorphs), Katran (Myst), Hartanna (Dragons in out Midst), and let us not forget the thousands in the PPC.
And while we're speaking of Myst, we probably shouldn't forget Marrim and Anna. ;-)
Second best, actually. Haleth is the best.
I think Mara Jade is sometimes a Sue, depending on who's writing her. Zahn in particular seems in love with her. She's usually cool, though.
Lobelia Sackvilleville-Baggins, Umbrella-wielder of the Shire!
...from the Firefly-verse. You don't get much more warrior than that. (Of course, some of that is lost when River goes all kickass with any and all available weaponry. And no armor...)
Others...I agree Tamora Peirce's character often fit that category. Angua from the Discworld series is that way as well. (Pratchett is VERY careful to avoid the scantily-clad warrior woman, ahaha.)
Well I agree with you about Zoe, I don't about River. The reason being, River is clinically insane. She was made into a clinically insane assassin and trained in the way of assassination through phycotropic drugs and a training regiment, her ability didn't come out over night (though it donsn't hurt to have mind reading ability.)
Leto
...of Tamora Pierce!
Keladry of Mindelan, Rebeca Cooper, and Alanna the Lioness are my favorite Warrior Women. Neither are 'Sues in any way (except Alanna has more dei ex machina than I can count on both hands as well as the power of the Gods...). They are not especially beautiful or graceful, and they actually use ARMOR THAT COVERS THEIR ENTIRE BODIES. Whoa. And they actually had to LEARN how to use weapons. As in, it took YEARS for them to master them.
There are others that I'm not thinking of right now, and I'll probably post them later.
Tamora Pierce was who I thought of first, particularly Kel. I think Kel sorta fits the exact model all authors should aim for with women warriors (In Middle Age Time Periods anyway). She had to work damn hard to gain her skills, and even then she sucks at a few.
I think Rosethorn and Daja can also fit into this category. While Rosethorn doesn't actually fight with martial weapons, she does kick ass when it comes to magical fighting, something which took her years to do as well. Lark confuses me, because she has one of the idealic 'Sue pasts. Came to her magic late, but turns out to be a Great Mage... Go figure.
Daja really goes without saying. While she does use her magic to fight, it isn't often. If anything, she uses it only for her own, small conveniences, like adjusting her body temperature. She's a fair fighter. She sorta offsets the 'Sueish traits that Tris and Sandry have too.
...while I'm a big Keladry and a milder Alanna fan, I always thought Daine was a big ole Sue. In fact, I should try her out on an Original Fiction Sue Test.
But the one who rocks harder than them all is Buri. I hope she has her own spin-off in the future.
I agree about Daine. Which is why I didn't list her. Same with Thayet.
I'd forgotten about Buri! *headdesk* Yes, she does rock them all. ;-)
It's interesting how Tamora Pierce can write well-rounded characters aimed at mid-teens and young adults, but when she attempted to reach a younger audience with Daine's series she ended up with an illegitimate-and-angsty, animal-speaking, CAF-toting, super-archer, half-immortal, oh-so-pretty, loved-by-all Uber-Sue. (At least Thayet has minimal book time in the Lioness Quartet.) Pierce should have just called Daine "Greek Goddess Artemis 2.0" and been done with it.
Plus, a 16-year-old girl with her 30-year-old tutor? Mmmmm, not exactly my cup of tea.
In my book, Daine's relation with Tortall is kind of like Wesley Crusher's relation with Star Trek. Though another thing that's bothered me as I've aged is the plethora of Generic Locations and Generic Beasts in the former universe.
(It should have a deathmatch with Forgotten Realms.)
how about Daja Kisubo? OKay so being a warrior isn't her main thing, but she can fight well (even without her magic), and she's definitely not a primarily beautiful or graceful kind of a girl :)
Rukia, Soifon, Yoruichi, Halibel and Matsumoto from Bleach are all good female warriors. They're strong, capable of holding their own against the men of the series and most of them hold quite high ranks. Armour isn't really an issue, since it's a rare thing for someone in Bleach canon to wear armour, but they do mostly cover up/wear the same uniforms as the males around them.
Sakura, Tsunade, Tenten, Temari and Hinata from Naruto can also hold their own against men that are considered as strong or stronger than them. They're not push overs, and woe betide anyone who thinks they are. Again, they don't wear the kind of skimpy clothes that you'd see a Sue wearing (except in bad fanfics where they're sleeping with every man in sight).
The Weyrwomen of the Pern series aren't warriors in the traditional sense of the word, but they do fight to protect their world from a deadly threat, so I'll count them here. Lessa, Moreta and Sorka especially stand out amongst them. They're level-headed and mentally strong enough to handle riding a queen dragon, with all the responsibility that entails.
Yes, we haven't actually seen her fight but we've seen her bankai and we know she's powerful. She rules her division with an iron fist (even the 11th is scared of her) yet her division still loves her and she clearly loves them. She's strong, intelligent, independent, one of the oldest captains and she never even threatens a single soul while carrying out her duty. She also braids her hair in a practical, if slightly unusual, style. ^_^ I'm rather fond of her, you might have guessed.
I'll add Menolly and most of the Headwomen--Hall, Hold, and Weyr--for the more average Pernese women. They aren't warriors, but you can't tell me Manora and Silvina aren't awesome.
~Neshomeh
for continuing to live on and stay strong even though she lost Wirenth. She could easily have turned out like Kylara or committed suicide, but she didn't.
I think there are more than enough "symbols of power and independance" for women around. Not to say that women don't deserve such thing, but quite frankly, we already have it, and I think a lot of women nowadays are throwing their victory into everyone else's faces. It seems like the pendulum has swung too far.
That said, I do like strong female characters. The one whom most fits your description is B'Elanna Torres from Star Trek: Voyager, but the one I most admire in terms of being a strong woman is Mara from Raymond E Feist and Janny Wurts' Empire series - she makes her victories by being clever politically, and has no skill at all with weapons. I like that. On a similar note, I love Yvaine from Stardust - the movie adaptation more than the book, but still. She is a fiercely strong-willed character, but I like that she keeps her strength without ever picking up a weapon (though she does wield her 'Super Shine Powers' (thankfully not referred to as such) to defeat an enemy).
Hm, I ramble. And aside from B'Elanna, I don't think this is what you wanted. Still, I wanted to say it. I like warrior women - I'd call myself one - but I tend to avoid them because from what I see in society today, I think it's overkill. We know women can be strong; what's unexplored is how strength, how the ability to fight and win, doesn't require weapons or battle cries. There are many I would call warriors that don't fight.
I think there are more than enough "symbols of power and independance" for women around.
Really? I'd argue that there aren't nearly enough, and so the few symbols we have do double duty, which just weighs them down under all our expectations. Go to Rotten Tomatoes and look at the movies that have been released for this week. How many have female leads whose character outshines their appearance? (You can even compare that to the numbers of male equivalents.) Furthermore, how many collective symbols of female power and independence have you seen? Just by looking at the characters listed in this thread, I can tell that lots of these women are "the girl" of the team/regiment or, if not the lone warrior, are one of the few female warriors in that universe. That's not a very good indicator that warrior women are plentiful.
There is a sense in fandom that there are lots and lots of strong women in media, because people can now name five or six off the tops of their heads who really stand out. Unfortunately, the reason that a lot of these strong women are so visible is because they are so isolated in the sea of male characters that the human race has produced.
I'd like you to do something for me. Go and write down your top 15 movies. Now, write down the following:
What percentage of the movies have strong and independent men in them? And women? (Please note that this can mean internal strength too, as well as other strength independent from firepower.)
What percentage of movies have only one strong and independent man? And women? Count how many characters of both sexes you would describe as strong.
What percentage have a token man who is the heroine's love interest? And token women?
What is the male-to-female ratio in each movie?
What percentage of the movies have men who are looked at not in terms of character, but in terms of appearance? And women? Count them all. (I'm not asking if these people are sexualized too, I'm asking if they're sexualized first and foremost.)
Now...and this is really sad...
Do the same, not for your top 15 movies, but for 15 movies you think have enough female chutzpah and strength to be called "girl power" movies. (Note that I'm not calling them chick flicks; that's a different genre entirely.)
I guarantee you that even in most movies with a strong female lead, there is at least one capable male, and that in the majority of girl power movies, the strong and independent men STILL outnumber the strong and independent women! And, hey, if you want to discount every movie made before the Women's Rights Movement, go right ahead. The results won't shift that much.
Are there still more than enough symbols of female power and independence?
That's just one medium, by the way. There are thousands of years of literature behind us where women like Keladry and B'Elanna cropped up once in a blue moon, where even internal strength in women was portrayed as rare. Strong and independent women in fiction exist, oh yes they do, and always have. But they are so heavily outweighed by the sheer numbers of strong and independent men (the ratio's probably about 500 to 1, taking into account all literature, fictional movies, TV, comics, legendary oral history, and heck, even folk songs) that they often get lost or are forced to become more in the public consciousness than they were ever meant to be by the author.
This is why years and years will pass before there are "more than enough" symbols of power and independence for women. This will only happen when those symbols outnumber by a significant margin all symbols of power and independence for men.
*toasts* Here's to you, 2800 A.D.!
Not to say that women don't deserve such thing, but quite frankly, we already have it, and I think a lot of women nowadays are throwing their victory into everyone else's faces. It seems like the pendulum has swung too far.
By "victory" I assume you mean the success of the women's movement. If I'm mistaken, please feel free to correct me. If I'm not, how exactly does one throw one's hard-won civil rights into everyone's faces? "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, I get to vote now!"? Besides, equality is really a victory for everyone, not just women.
That said, I do like strong female characters. The one whom most fits your description is B'Elanna Torres from Star Trek: Voyager, but the one I most admire in terms of being a strong woman is Mara from Raymond E Feist and Janny Wurts' Empire series - she makes her victories by being clever politically, and has no skill at all with weapons. I like that.
I'm familiar with (and have a soft spot in my heart for) B'Elanna, and I've never read Mara's adventures but have actually heard them cited elsewhere as a good example of a non-Sue, non-militaristic female. It might have been Winterfox.
I like warrior women - I'd call myself one - but I tend to avoid them because from what I see in society today, I think it's overkill. We know women can be strong; what's unexplored is how strength, how the ability to fight and win, doesn't require weapons or battle cries. There are many I would call warriors that don't fight.
Of course there are, and I could say the same. Arms-bearing women are just the easiest to contrast with Warrior Sues, the latter being the most visible female character cliché in most badfic. (I count wand-dueling as warring, by the way.) I'd argue that the existence of Warrior Sue is due to the fact that, even if there are many strong female characters, the proportion of these in comparison to men is so skewed that a lot of Suethors aren't exposed to enough of them and taught to value them. At the same time, as 21st century writers, Suethors subconsciously feel the need to reduce the huge gender imbalance that plagues virtually every genre and medium. In other words, they want true strong female characters, but aren't knowledgeable enough either to write one or to appreciate one when one comes along. Add this to raging hormones and the influence of Canon Sues that they idolize, and the result is a bizarre chimera--misandrist and sex object--that we agents encounter and slay on a regular basis.
~Araeph
From one of Alison Bechdel's comic strips;
"I have a test for movies I'll watch.
1) It has to have at least two women in it,
2) who talk to each other,
3) about something other than a man."
"Sounds like a pretty exclusive test."
"No kidding. The last film I was able to watch was Alien - the two women talk to each other about the monster."
You're absolutely right about films and such; I hate them, and tend to ignore them, and while I was thinking of non-story social treatment, I should not have used the word "symbol". The thread below this sort of outlines the point I was trying to get at, but I did so badly in this first post, so I apologise. I should've gone back and rephrased myself.
Among other things, I DESPISE the fact that movies never seem to have women that aren't thin and sexy - or men that aren't handsome. Sexuality may sell, but it makes the rest of us feel horrible, and I would love to turn the fashion industry on its ear... but I'll not get into this discussion, because I will literally never shut up. In short, you're right again, Araeph, and I humbly bow at your feet. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
By "victory" I assume you mean the success of the women's movement. If I'm mistaken, please feel free to correct me. If I'm not, how exactly does one throw one's hard-won civil rights into everyone's faces? "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, I get to vote now!"? Besides, equality is really a victory for everyone, not just women.
It should be, and yes I did mean the women's movement, but what I was getting at is that a lot of women seem to misunderstand what gender equality actually means; now both genders have the right to work any job they want, but that doesn't mean every woman can have a great career AND raise a family. Equality on that front gave women a CHOICE of what they wanted from their lives, not the ability to have everything, and from what I see around me, many seem to be blind to that. Then they go complaining about unfairness of little details because they're stressed by trying to have a good job and a family at the same time. I'm not saying it's impossible, of course, just taken to be what every woman is entitled to have .
Sorry, I've gone off on a tanget. By "throwing in faces" I meant that men are often getting the short end of the deal in situations such as custody cases because a lot of women throw around the "I'm a woman and if you don't support me you're gender biased!" card. They forget that by making that very claim, they're being gender biased themselves. I didn't mean to imply that all women do such things, but it does happen.
I've never read Mara's adventures but have actually heard them cited elsewhere as a good example of a non-Sue, non-militaristic female.
Mara's interesting. I rather like her, though I only read the five boosk by Timothy Zahn, and refuse to touch any of the other Star Wars EU books. She is militarisitic, though, in some ways; she was a trained assassin for the Emperor, and her targets were mostly political. A lot of her behaviour has (or HAD, as she did grow) straightforward, highly efficient mannerisms that people can associate with military training. That said, she never felt like a Sue to me, and I appreciate her character.
as 21st century writers, Suethors subconsciously feel the need to reduce the huge gender imbalance that plagues virtually every genre and medium. In other words, they want true strong female characters, but aren't knowledgeable enough either to write one or to appreciate one when one comes along.
EXACTLY. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Which makes it all the more of a shame when they create bad stereotypes.
- Sedri
More than two years late, I realise that I confused two characters by the name of "Mara" here - when I first mentioned the name, upthread, I was referring to Mara of the Acoma, from the Feist/Wurts Empire series. The second time, in the second post, I must have been befuddled, because I was talking about Mara Jade from the Star Wars EU. Heh.
Well, I imagine no one will notice this now, nor care, since this thread is so old that no one will ever see the update. Still, I wanted to say it. :)
I'm with you, Sedri--I'm all for female empowerment, but I draw the line when, for example, feminism is almost the only method of literary analysis I hear about in my Lit classes. Sometimes enough is enough.
That said, I can think of one author who consistently writes good, strong, capable, and yet feminine women leads, and that is Sherri S. Tepper. Some of her work is distinctly feminist (The Gate to Women's Country), but most of it (The Family Tree; Grass; Shadow's End) simply has so much going on in the social, religious, scientific, and near-fantastical aspects that you can't help but be sucked in by the sheer complexity of it. I'd recommend her to anybody.
I don't think women need to be macho to be as strong as men. Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. We need to accept that.
~Neshomeh, who finds really good women leads hard to come by.
"If they're strong, the fanbrats claim they're 'sluts' or 'overpowered Mary Sues'. If they're not strong, the fanbrats whine about how there are no good female characters in the fandom."
I think it's hard to find the balance. I mean, we're dealing with centuries of gender roles on the one hand--the ones that say good women are good mothers, homemakers, etc.--and the new feminism on the other hand, which says good women should be able and even want to do everything that men do. If you get a female character behaving like the classic woman, she's weak or at best oppressed according to the new standards; but if you get a female character behaving like a man, she's too outspoken, too forward, unfeminine, etc., by the old standards. There's a place in between, but it's hard to get there.
I think it's a mistake to completely devalue the old standards, even as we move forward and add new ones, like intelligence, ability, and self-confidence. It's a mistake to exclude anyone from becoming strong in any area if that's their nature, and that includes men.
~Neshomeh, who is neither girly nor tomboyish, but her own brand of human person.
In my real life, I have no great desire to change the world or have a high-powered job or great athletic skills; all I want is to make enough money to have a house and kids (and cats) and to enjoy my life from day-to-day. When I say this to some - many - people, I get very strange looks.
It's not that I don't want to do well - I'm planning to do post-grand and masters here in uni, and that's no small accomplishment - but that the "classic" woman that so many people call oppressed is what I really do want to be; I can still be outspoken, but no one seems to realise that. It's as though being a mother isn't difficult enough to be respected anymore. *sigh*
As in, a lot of people will insist that a female character is a Sue because she has all the l33t skills - but fail to regard that everyone else in the fandom source material has them as well.
It's kind of a fact of fandom that there are fewer male writers, thus fewer male OCs, and thus fewer Gary-Stus. But yeah, female OCs are more suspect, chiefly because there are more of them and the majority are poorly-written.
On the flip side, there are (or were--I guess I don't really know) fewer female leads in published fiction, and we have higher expectations for them because of all the stuff that's going on in this thread.
There's also the fact that the term "Mary-Sue" is associated with female characters, and is a relatively well-known term. We're sort of geared to suspect female characters by the very language we invented for them.
It is kind of a nasty catch-22, isn't it?
Do you have an example of the kind of thing you're talking about, like a particular fandom? I'm curious about this now.
~Neshomeh
I've seen people complain that she's Sueish because of all the unfeasibly cool stuff she does. Disregarding, of course, that everyone does unfeasibly cool stuff in the PoTC films (if they didn't, the movies would be very boring).
image of Must Be Strong, and now we've got an overabundance of Soppy or Sentimental Male Leads, and every time a man leans towards the old sterotype, he runs the risk of being criticised (mostly by women) as a nasty bastard. *sigh* It's a shame.
An overabundance of Soppy Male Leads, I mean. I can't think of any offhand, but I can't imagine it would sit better with me than the Overly-Macho Male Lead. I think the Stallone and Schwarzenegger character types are gross, frankly. Again, it's all about balance. I'd like my boyfriend to feel strongly enough about me to clock someone who was bothering me (if I didn't do it first myself), but I wouldn't like him to feel like he had to be a bruiser to be a good man. Similarly, I'd want him to be able to recognize and express his emotions, but not let them rule every moment of his life.
The best character I know who might be described as macho is Ka D'Argo from Farscape. He's big, he's tough, he's gruff, he'll sock you as soon as look at you if you cross him... and we learn that his secret ambition is to start a family and settle down on a farm. Wonderful character.
~Neshomeh
"Soppy" isn't right, either. But I definitely hate the Macho Male type...
I loved The Family Tree. One of my favorite books ever. (And a completely awesome twist near the end ^^ )