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I guess that I should always ask for second opinions on things.

Where the only canon English-speaking fans have to go off of are fan translations, I'd agree that the PPC has no jurisdiction with canon details changed due to translation localisations. Honestly in CNovel fandom I feel like fan translations could be canon-by-proxy until official translations come out (which would likely be never when it comes to English, versus Korean or Japanese haha)

But even official translations have their flaws. For example, I actually disagree with the translation choices made for the official subtitles of The Untamed, such as calling Lan Wangji's "Childe Lan" rather than "Second Young Master Lan", or saying "Lord Hanguang" instead of just "Hanguang-jun". But if a fic insists on using what they got out of the subtitles, then that's their prerogative.

It's my opinion that there isn't anything in that part of the mission that warrants being called on the carpet.

It is also my opinion that making fun of apologies is not an appropriate response to being called out, whether or not the calling-out was warranted.

I kinda regret opening my mouth now.

~Neshomeh

I gotta admit, it’s pretty rare of you to admit you’ve got any flaws, like those pipe cleaners you call arms.

-apology posts. Apparently they were wrong.))

If we go with the assumption that non-imperialist Gondor was not invading the South or the East, could we also posit that, say, non-imperialist Gondor would have encouraged trade between the South and East with the North and West during the years in which Sauron was said to be defeated? I don't recall if Tolkien ever established any significant contact between the North&West with the South&East outside of wars and Gondorians thinking the Southrons/Easterlings were savage warlord tribes (yikes). So if non-imperialist Gondor was giving the South and East access to goods and ideas of resistance against the Enemy, could we have seen greater resistance against Sauron in the East once he declared himself again? (Also was that not the Blue Wizards' job ahaha)

Anyway, none of that doesn't mean Wainriders wouldn't attack Gondor. I mean, there's also the possibility that outside of Sauron or Angmar's control, the Wainriders wanted to expand their stomping grounds westwards. So even if the Kingship of Gondor remained with Ondoher and his kin because they only needed to focus on the Wainriders versus Wainriders and Haradrim, there's a possibility the heirs of Ondoher could still be killed off in future battles with Angmar or the Wainriders. Or there could be a new Great Plague and the Men are all freakin' plague rats...

Fairness: The movie definitely played up the assumptions versus the books, but I have to admit the books insisting on terms like "Black Speech" and "Black Numenoreans" doesn't sit well with me either haha /am unrepentant Queen Beruthiel stan

Art: I can't see Dafydd or Christianne caring about it being Valentine's Day, haha. Maybe the club had a drinks discount for couples....

Notes: I shared the doc with you before I went to bed last night! I sent it to the email we shared for the Silmaril Sue cowrite. Feel free to make comments and correct my Sindarin/the few spots of Quenya. I'd be especially interested in what you think of the period dramas a modern Middle-earth would have ;P

You: Fine. You play well with others, and you seem to Get It. Keep it up!

Agents: Fine. Classic pairing of a serious person and a maniac. Should do well as long as they're played for comedy and not drama. If the spin-off begins to tend more serious, though, Thalia will need to be toned down or switched out, because comedic violence only works in comedies. (On which note, maybe avoid heavy swearing? It felt really out of place.)

PPC knowledge: Also fine. I'm glad to see a one-room response center, and I dig the inclusion of a Jay and Acacia poster on the wall. I wonder what they'd think of that?

Badfic: Probably not as bad as you think it is, since it's yours, but you're always welcome to spork your own work. {= )

Now, the SPaG. It's clearly not bad enough that I'm denying Permission, but there are some consistent errors that need correction. Beta, please take heed as well. {= )

First and foremost, everyone is taught that when a new character speaks, that speech get a new line. What everyone should be taught is that when a new character acts, that gets a new line. The reason is this:

“It’s Doom.” Thalia nodded, before stepping aside.

Who said that line? Sure looks like it was Thalia, whose action is paired with the speech here. Let's check the next line for clues.

“Oh, where are my manners? Come in!”

Nope, doesn't help. What about the previous line?

“Hi!” She bounced in place, her grin remaining firmly fixed on her face. “I’m Thalia Quinn! Nice to meetcha!” The girl grabbed his gloved hand and shook it vigorously. “What’s your name?” Doom blinked, taken completely aback by her enthusiastic welcome, before regaining his usual scowl.

Well, it looks like Thalia speaks the first bits of dialogue, since she introduces herself in them, but then we get Doom's action at the end of the paragraph. So, if we leave a Doom line for a new speech, that speech should be Thalia's.

But it isn't. It's Doom's.

This problem is easily solved by keeping each character to their own line, like so:

“Hi!” She bounced in place, her grin remaining firmly fixed on her face. “I’m Thalia Quinn! Nice to meetcha!” The girl grabbed his gloved hand and shook it vigorously. “What’s your name?”

Doom blinked, taken completely aback by her enthusiastic welcome, before regaining his usual scowl. “It’s Doom.”

Thalia nodded, before stepping aside. “Oh, where are my manners? Come in!”

See? Much more clear. {= ) (Also, you don't need the comma after "nodded," but that's minor.)

Now, before anyone yells at me, you CAN include multiple characters in the same paragraph for the purposes of action or description, and you CAN include a character's thoughts or impressions of another character's speech in a first-person or limited-omniscient POV, but until you're familiar with how to do it without being confusing, it's best to stick to the rule that new character = new line.

Second, when you have quotations within quotations, you must change the style of quotation marks. For example, this line:

“Something about, and I quote, “being mentally stable enough to keep a handle on you”.”

Should be written with single quotes inside the double quotes, like so:

“Something about, and I quote, ‘being mentally stable enough to keep a handle on you’.”

And, if you had a quotation nested within single quotes, you'd switch to double quotes:

“Something about, and I quote, ‘being “mentally stable” enough to keep a handle on you’.”

But, er, don't write anything with more than one set of nested quotes if you can possibly avoid it, please. This is just to show the concept to the fullest. ^_^

Third, three is the number of dots in the ellipsis, and the number of the dotting shall be three. Four shalt thou not dot; neither dot thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.

“So....” Doom paused

much fraying of his temper..

for.....my condition

You were very naughty. {; P

Fourth, watch how you space (or don't) around your dashes. I believe those are M dashes, so you should have no space on either side of the dash. Zero spaces.

Fifth, I think there were some comma and hyphenation errors, but that's getting nitpicky and my brain is almost out of steam for now. Oh, and there are a couple spots where you need two line-breaks, but there's only one; look the entry over, and I'm sure you'll spot them.

So, all that over with, congratulations! I hope my outer editor didn't dampen your spirits too much. {= D

~Neshomeh

.ti fo gnah eht tog uoy dalg m'I

Also, I think I got the hang of this Interweb thing.

Honestly, you’re so annoying I marvel at the fact you have friends.

Do I understand this right? Character A and Character B are in the DMS. They both signed up to to a job: assassinating Suvians. When it comes to the point of doing said job, Character A reveals they can't, and Character B has to do said job—which they both signed up for.

And... people are taking issue with Character A "forcing" Character B... into doing the job they signed up for? If so, I am very confused.

Granted, there are some things worth questioning here, like why Character A is even in the DMS if they have a known problem with assassinations, but this doesn't sound like Serious Moral Business to me. It sounds like the Flowers being terrible managers, as usual.

Also, before anyone thinks I'm making assumptions, I did read the scene in question. Yes, Tanner could have been more forthcoming, and yes, Kaito is angry and would have preferred things to go differently—but Kaito also literally says "I've got no problem doing it myself." Further, even if it wasn't brought up, there was a way out of the situation: calling for backup. There was time for that if Kaito had said he really wasn't ready; they weren't in the middle of capturing and charging, they were discussing how best to start. I don't see that anyone was forced into anything.

~Neshomeh

Which is possible, knowing him.

My partner’s clearly a hick who doesn’t understand stuff more complicated than a pen.

It's a lot easier to explain the Internet in person.

It has come to my attention that I have done some less-than-ethical things without even realizing them, and the purpose of this post is to clear the air a little about my actions.

On February 27th of this year, I was assigned a new partner, Kaito Hoshino, and we embarked on our first mission together. The Stu we had been assigned to was an overpowered gamer Stu who had replaced Harry Potter and was attempting to 100% speedrun canon and get the best ending. However, i have... a little bit of a problem killing Sues. Namely, every time I try, I just can't do it, and the last time I tried, my partner nearly died. Because of this, I had to transfer the actual act of killing the Stu to my partner while I distracted and charged, as I have been doing for the past two weeks.

I had taken what I believed to be the best course of action for the situation, however, recent rumblings on CanonChat have made it clear to me that what I did counts as entrapment. Namely, I forced Kaito into a situation he might not have been ready for, and did not fully inform him of my condition until right before the assassination. He seemed to take it pretty well – and by that I mean he didn't completely break down like I probably would've – and it was the only option. This blinded me to the moral implications of forcing someone else into a "kill or be killed" scenario.

I would like to formally apologize for my terrible actions and poor planning. Kaito, I am sorry that I forced you into such an awkward scenario, and I give you the freedom to prank me as many times as you want for the rest of the week. (A suggestion: I am easily startled.) As for anyone I made uncomfortable with the mission report describing my actions, I apologize for that, too. I will not shirk my duties again.

... SunAndMoon made the same point when I first posted it. I observed that Constance Doesn't Dance, so there was clearly a lot of coercion/pestering involved in this evening. It may or may not be Valentine's Day, though why Dafydd would care I have no idea.

Gondor: I think the biggest difference with non-racist Gondor would be them not driving the Dunlendings out of not-yet-Rohan. Given that they'd just defeated Sauron, they'd probably still have been in charge of the region, but they'd have a much higher population. By not constantly invading Harad (sorry, 'South Gondor', pfftyeahright), they'd have a secure southern border along Anduin - the Haradrim have no reason to dislike them, at least once it's clear the era of slavery is a few hundred years dead with Numenor - which would let them focus their attention East.

It's tricky to say what would have gone on with the Easterlings - were the earliest invasions from Rhun (ca. T.A. 490) unprovoked, or a reaction to Gondor's expansion? Ultimately, the East was firmly under Sauron's control for most of the age, so it's hard to see how the likes of the Wainriders wouldn't have showed up anyway. Not expanding north-east would give Gondor a better defensive line (along the Emyn Muil/Dead Marshes/Morannon), but less defensive depth.

The big change is probably the death of Ondoher in T.A. 1944, which led to the appointment of the barely-eligable last two Kings of Gondor. Ondoher's armies were attacked by both the Wainriders and the Haradrim... without the racism, he might have been able to focus on the Wainriders alone, and the Line of Kings might not have been broken. Which puts rather a spanner in Aragorn's whole deal.

Fairness: totally agreed that the text lends itself to assumptions (though Saruman the White, the black walls of Minas Tirith, and the spooky white Minas Morgul all stand against them), and the movies really leant into them. I'm positive Amazon will be more diverse, but it's hard to know whether it'll be even slightly Tolkienesque.

I am always interested in seeing notes. ^_^ I am also available by email if you're a fan of drawn-out conversations where you need to poke me occasionally to get a reply.

hS

So... they sell you water... and you add more water...? That's incredible. How did they get away with that?

-looks over at Silicon valley bros trying to sell 'raw water'- Oh, I see.

This Board is very nice! I like the expand post option. And the fact that all the old posts are preserved! (Though admittedly it is embarrassing to see my posts from 2008 again)

I see that E has somehow managed to get C into a dress for the occasion. I wonder what bribes and favours went into making that happen :'D

Yes, I definitely think the Numenorean greed for land especially with regards to Harad, Umbar, Harondor etc got a bit downplayed, and the Red Book being a Gondorian copy would probably explain that haha! The books focused a lot on greed over shinies, but I personally wonder how the 3rd Age could've gone if Gondorian imperialism hadn't soured the Easterlings against the rest of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.

I do agree that ultimately using the term 'fair' doesn't necessarily equate to pale, but we have all been sort of conditioned as readers of fantasy to make that connection, especially with stories like LotR frequently using dark-vs-light, black-vs-white imagery. And yes, to be fair (haha), Sauron and some of the Enemy do "look fairer and feel fouler", which is a little bit of a textual pushback, and the Silm I feel has a bit more grey morality compared to LotR... but again, despite all of this, readers of the work can often make assumptions, and the existing film adaptations don't do much to dissuade those assumptions. I'm ultimately glad that Tolkien fandom (here and elsewhere) is becoming more open to a diversified portrayal of Middle-earth, though!

(I'm cautiously excited about the Amazon series? They did a pretty good job with Good Omens in my opinion but I am a little bit amused at them saying they wanted to up the rating... I hope this doesn't mean full-frontal Gollum :'D)

Incidentally, since I really do enjoy and miss talking Tolkien with you: I've been worldbuilding a modern Middle-earth for fun and giggles; would you be interested in seeing the notes?

Thank you so much for the adorable epilogue, because it reminded me that back in 2019 I finally returned the long, long ago favour of fanart you did me:

(deviantArt / Imgur closeup)

Club Aujourd'hui, New Caledonia, with Christianne and Eledhwen right at the top of the dancefloor. They're very cute together. ^_^

(The other couples are Ix & Lottie, Derik and Gall, and - of course - Dafydd and Constance.)

Back to Tolkien (because I will never pass up a Tolkien opportunity), the really good part is that the Red Book is supposedly a Gondorian copy of the original, so all the Numenorean chauvinism is probably just their addition. It's notable that the Kin-strife was explicitly caused by Gondorian racism against non-Numenoreans... Gondor is just racist, and Tolkien-as-author doesn't really condone it. (I mean, heck, the evillest thing Men ever did was try to invade Valinor, and it was pure Numenoreans in the direct Line of Elros who did it!)

As to ~fair~... did you know there are 112 uses of the word in the Silmarillion? :D Most of them, surprisingly, are of places and objects, and as for the ones about people... y'know, I've just looked through all 112, and I can't find any instances where I'd parse fair = pale. He uses it in connection with pale hair sometimes, but just as often with dark. Aredhel - who is actually described as white, and nicknamed because of how white she is - is only called 'fair' once, when Eol is looking at her from a distance. Perhaps most notably, Dior becomes fair when he puts on the Silmaril. The one maybe-exception is Tar-Miriel, who is "fairer than silver or ivory or pearls", implying a paleness component, but even then... I agree it's a poor choice of word, and dramatically overused (there's only 66 'beaut-' words, for comparison), but at least he doesn't seem to be deliberately invoking pale skin.

(Hilariously, Sauron-as-Annatar is described as putting on a 'fair hue' that makes him seem 'both fair and wise'. What, er, what colour do you need to paint yourself to look particularly wise? o.O)

hS