Subject: Dude...
Author:
Posted on: 2016-02-19 20:13:00 UTC
You are aware that you sound incredibly patronising, right? July's problem with you isn't "bringing anything military into [her] safe place" — especially considering she wrote this with me a while back — her problem, as far as I understand it, is that you're being patronising and thinking that having a spouse in the Navy means you know everything about the navy.
Frankly, you owe her an apology.
Permission Document
Bios - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbwoM72sBMTptoMonyWZ50eFjt1nafdA7j2d6mvbb-Y/edit?usp=sharing
Writing Samples -
1 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YHCRMpUPrv92GpvzZUc18PDoynNPg_e3yGnJL8pXKWQ/edit
2 https://docs.google.com/document/d/10C9Oxw8JvPLE7wTP3DBcZkNwKEWLfX2egirxYydwhqs/edit?usp=sharing
Links to first mission - I don’t know what mission I’ll be able to publish first, but here’s some I may try.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11262693/1/Fan-fiction-Chappie It looks like it’s written in the gang members’ dialect.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10994113/2/Guardian-of-Narnia I haven’t read the entire thing, but there is an elf. It might not be bad enough.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2883020/1/It-s-not-a-blender-it-s-a-coffeemaker It feels like cheating to pull off of the unclaimed list, but I probably will do this one.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9869874/1/Professor-Paradox-meets-the-11-doctor I think that Paradox is mostly in-character. I’m not sure about the Doctor. Might be too short to make into a good mission.
Name of the Beta - Anonymous friend.
As a few other people already noted, there's been quite a few people jumping in to add in their two cents, whether it's trying to be helpful to Bramandin or to add in to shouting them down.
Please note, this is a request. I can't make you stop, if you really decide to. Neither can anyone else. Your behavior and decisions all rely on you.
At the very least, keep the Constitution in mind.
While you haven't (that I've noticed) named the particular disability you've been talking about, the particular way you have been communicating implies that you may be autistic. I apologize if this assumption is wrong; however, as it is the most plausible one I have, I am posting the rest of this post under that assumption.
So... hi, fellow autist. I only wish this could be under better circumstances. And... yeah, I'm a bit angry with you too, which I am only stating in case this gets into a "but you *agreed* with me" situation -- unlikely, yes, but I have always felt the need to prepare for unlikely circumstances.
Anyway, I have a from-personal-experience piece of advice for you: don't respond to criticism, constructive or not, immediately. I'll freely note that I used to get cry-y just getting typos pointed out to me. I also got... well, defensive isn't quite the right word -- more "ready to just up and delete whatever it was so that people aren't mad at me." I managed to get over that last part, eventually, but it was a long and grueling experience. Honestly, the PPC helped me a lot. It's okay if it's not the place for you, but even just taking the badfics the PPC missions as 'what not to do' lists helped a great deal. Especially to make me less-afraid of "said." Though I *still* have a hard time using "stated..."
Well, anyway. What I'm saying is that I have some personal experience with what's going on here. For me it went like "frantically try to appease person, get embarrassed, abandon/delete fic, regret everything." It, well... looks like your response is to get angry at people. Now, I'm not saying that automatically makes you a bad person. I don't think you're a bad person.
Anyway, I'm possibly getting off-topic. I know it probably seems like you *have* to respond to criticism immediately. But for people like us, whose first reactions are probably not the reactions we'd like to have... take some time to wait. I don't know how much time -- my guideline was "wait until the tight, terrified feeling in your stomach goes away, or at the very least until the crying stops." It's helped me handle things much better, and I don't have the same "visceral terror" reaction to people not liking something anymore. (There's a thing I figured out, which basically feels like holding my brain steady, but there are no words in the English language to describe how it works and so I cannot usefully share that.)
I hope I have helped.
-- TheShyIon
Seconding what TheShyIon said about not responding to criticism immediately. I'd like to add that this does not only apply to autistic people -- example, me. I'm not autistic and I can react really emotionally to criticism. So even if TheShyIon's guess about you being autistic is off, you should listen to her.
For one, if Kelly doesn't feel passionate enough about fandoms that are popular enough to have fanfiction...then why is she in the PPC? The PPC is all about protecting canon from bad fanfic, preserving canon as it should be. Badfic is the norm that everyone deals with in some way or another, whether tht be slaying Sues, taking care of Suvian offspring and raisng them to not be like mommy and daddy, or whatever. It's like going into, say, engineering without being interested in engineering. It makes no sense.
Also, with the bear - interesting idea, but one flaw. There is no ways bears can sneak like what I assume you mean her to sneak for. I'm assuming that Kelly is in the DMS, so yeah, sneaking is a needed ability, but bears aren't that quiet. Far from what's required. Hide, probably. Sneak, no way, unless she picked a good D.O.R.K.S. form and trained extensively in that to sneak well.
Just wondering, Anonymous and all that. Other than that, It's safe to assume that this is a no, right?
Will you guys quit doing this?
I suppose it's a tad too late for a review, then.
It's all rather... robotic.
Things just seem to 'happen.'
Kelly is playing a game of Chess, is losing, and doesn't seem to mind.
That's all we're given.
She doesn't grimace, doesn't mumble 'Drat,' to herself whenever the computer makes a good move, she doesn't quit, shrug, and sip a drink, or something like that.
Things just happen.
My advice?
Add some flair!
Go mad!
Snort some lead!
How do they react to their circumstances?
Kelly doesn't mind working with animals - does she smile because of that?
Or does she just stare stoically?
How does Injerd feel about that?
Does she think she's weird, and try and get some distance?
Does she start taking notes, or consider escape routes?
Consider that kind of stuff.
Don't actually snort lead, though.
Okay, your agent bio pages give me a few things that are eyebrow raising.
To start with, Kelly. You say she's aloof and guarded. She secretly cares about her partners. That's... it? We don't get much more? Your personality bit is just a few traits thrown together and don't really tell us how she acts or reacts to things. I could cut off the bit that tells us she reads trashy romance and it suddenly applies to a good deal of agents.
Why/how would Kelly have her sister's family just up and moved to a different continuum? Do they not have an extended family that would presumbly wonder where they went? Or her brother-in-law's family? Did her sister and b-i-l not have any say in the matter? This is a random thing that doesn't really... tell us anything.
Neuralyzer-immunity granting implants- I admit, it's been well over a decade since I watched the MiB cartoon, but I'm pretty sure I don't remember anything like that being canonical or even suggestibly canonical; the neuralyzer is pretty much the go-to tool in the MiB canons for preserving the secret that aliens are on Earth. The Ben 10 universe also has no real reason to negate such a thing- the Plumbers exist for a reason.
The agents who recruited her could have very easily had it removed or used any other alternative method to erase her memories and toss her back into her home-fic.
There's also a difference between being irreligious and telling off Aslan, who in his canon, most certainly exists and generally doesn't do anything to actually deserve being told off by a random PPC agent.
Injerd: Why does she have two names? Why the mention of usually a beard in disguise? You did not tell us much at all in this tiny bio.
Agent TBD: Holy macaroni, was that the general alarm I heard on the boat just now? Nope, it was just me reading this part:
'The rest of her personality will be determined once I’ve figured out how to build the perfect agent.'
The perfect agent does not exist.
This last one alone tells me you don't quite understand what we do with character creation as far as the PPC goes, if you make characters wholecloth for the setting.
As far as your stories go:
You have SpaG. Well done. There's a general forward movement in the writing, which indicates you have an understanding of time and movement.
Buuut you don't really show or do anything in the stories themselves. The characters show no real fleshing out. They actually seem kind of... boring, to be honest.
Random note about the first story with Agent TBD: I am currently wearing the blouse for a Navy Working Uniform right now in fact. I'm not entirely sure what you're going for with that sentence about it having faded first prior to dying. Is it because it's implied to be old? Because it doesn't work that way. Which is to say, if I were to take a brand new one, and shove it into one of the washers on the ship with a black dye packet it would turn it completely black without having to wait for it to fade (which would happen if I decided to just stand outside in the desert sun for a few hours. Easy peasy.). I would also gain some enemies in the Supply Department, but that is beside the point. Please both research things you include- because it will make people go '...No?' upon reading if they actually know the item in question- and make sure that you are clear about what you are talking about.
Lastly...
While I cannot speak for others, I did hear that you were giving others a difficult time when you asked for assistance with working on your characters and writing samples for asking for permission.
As a community, when people ask for help, we are all generally willing to give it if we have the time.
That said, it's incredibly frustrating when that advice gets ignored or tossed out; when that happens the result is people are generally less inclined to work with said person in the future when they ask for help again.
Boarders are not some mechanical tool to use to check something and then ignore if the results are not to your liking.
All that said,
Permission denied.
-July
I think you owe me an apology for casting judgement without asking for my point of view.
I was honestly not trying to be difficult. Desdendelle did admit to not being the most patient. He and Iximaz pointed out that my character is breaking the fourth wall when I already knew that. http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=290304; The characters getting meta is what happened when I kept forcing the process and letting it onto the page where people could see it.
And he started talking like I demanded to use the old system when I merely asked. I did admit to getting annoyed at him and Iximaz for giving me a hard time about asking for help and having problems with the prompts.
I apologize if I didn't do enough to acknowledge that I was considering advice. And perhaps I missed something that got lost in the chat. I did show him that I was trying to follow advice.
He also seems to think I'm angry because he didn't gush praise on my writing. I hated the writing he was looking at, and would have gotten offended if he said he liked it.
Dedendelle also accused me of being a troll, which I didn't appreciate.
When we pointed out your characters were breaking the fourth wall more than Deadpool, you got snippy and insisted it was because you were forcing your characters to do things they wouldn't do, completely ignoring the fact that nobody was forcing you to write them like that. It's not our fault you interpreted the prompts in such a rigid way.
It's a crying shame we don't have the original chat logs to compare, but I think your attitude here showcases it perfectly. You were demanding, and you threw a tantrum when we said no. And the more you demand and continue to insult people, the less likely you are to get the Permission process altered for you.
Considering how defensive you became when the other PGs pointed out everything that was wrong with your Permission attempt? Yeah, I'd say you're pretty angry we're not heaping praise onto you, which I find pretty ironic considering you're accusing me and Des of demanding praise for looking over your work.
All of this coupled with your multiple insincere-sounding 'apologies' means I am not and will not be apologizing to you.
I already knew that my characters were getting meta, and I believe that I have explained that I was just letting it onto the page so that you could see the problem. Not all of the prompts got meta, either.
I thought that it was not very helpful to re-iterate the problem back to me.
I'm sorry that sometimes it takes a couple different ways of saying something before comprehending it. I'm not refusing concrit, what looks like arguing is really my way of getting enough information to understand something and make sure that the other person understood me right.
I am sorry if my tone came off as snippy, that was not my intention. How would you say it so that it's in a better tone?
I do apologize for asking for help when I had gone through less than ten of the prompts, and had more experienced people check my character instead of just cheating like the FAQ said.
I also apologize for not understanding how literally the prompts needed to be interpreted. I did try this, but I don't know if it's close enough to what the prompt says. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-SbSNd8r0jD6--lRli2koTGO3HDfOqeM2L55BFJ3MQU/edit?usp=sharing
I did say to Desdendelle that I did not want to use one of his suggestions. Perhaps I said it in the wrong way? Or do I need to try it even though I don't want to so he stops being upset?
I'm sorry for the insincere apologies. I honestly picked up a bad social context from another group that demanded apologies for things that weren't my fault. I mis-read the tone of this group. I'll try to adjust my mask to be more like what you want, but I do need some guidance.
And the post you linked. I'm as frustrated with you as you seem to be with me.
"I did say to Desdendelle that I did not want to use one of his suggestions. Perhaps I said it in the wrong way? Or do I need to try it even though I don't want to so he stops being upset?
I'm sorry for the insincere apologies. I honestly picked up a bad social context from another group that demanded apologies for things that weren't my fault. I mis-read the tone of this group. I'll try to adjust my mask to be more like what you want, but I do need some guidance."
This. See this? This right here?
You're saying that 1) Desdendelle is acting like a petulant child who needs to be appeased and 2) you don't care about making reparations, only about being accepted back into the community under false pretenses.
I don't know if I should be worried or impressed that you've managed to keep digging yourself deeper.
I did not see this message before I posted my other one.
I'm not implying that he's a petulant child. You two seem upset because you think that I'm not following your advice. Do you want me to do what you want or not? What exactly do you want?
The mask refers to the outer presentation. Mine isn't perfect enough to pass for normal, but it does hide my weirder traits when in public. It's like pretending that I'm healthy so that I don't get weird looks, or bullied, or locked up. It's like someone pretending that they're straight so their homophobic boss doesn't find an excuse to fire them.
What I'm offering is to try to be more like the person you'd find acceptable. I admit that I was wearing the wrong mask when I came in here. Do you want me to act like I understand what you're talking about when I don't? Do you want me to not say anything when someone says something hurtful to me?
"I admit that I was wearing the wrong mask when I came in here."
Good to know you've not been upfront about your personality this whole time. That explains a lot.
I really hope you didn't, but.
You have just used an analogy which goes disabled person::society, gay person::homophobic boss, you::PPC. You have at the very least implied that Boarders - many of whom are neuroatypical in one way or another - are being as horrible and oppressive to you as a homophobic boss. This is not an OK thing to say, because many of the PPCers have to deal with that in their own lives.
Is that a clear enough explanation as to why you need to apologize for that analogy, right now? Because that is genuinely a painful thing to say to someone, and maybe you didn't think it all the way through, but either way you need to apologize for that.
I'm sorry to mix the seriousness-level of the metaphors. My thought processes get very alien sometimes.
I honestly didn't notice the harm that it could cause. I'll try to put that into my database.
Maybe I should have compared the PPC more to the conformity of wearing the same sort of clothing as the rest of the school so that you fit in. Ultimately not harmful and easily dismissable, part of the societal contract that I can't grasp naturally like other people can. I just didn't think of it and I'm still not sure if it's clear.
I'm sorry this is a bit rushed. I'm going away for a while, and I will think about things.
Maybe this will be clearer. Expecting someone to follow a certain standard of civility is not the same as expecting everyone to be conformist droids, it's basic don't-be-a-jerk-to-people.
The issue so far has been that you have been saying hurtful things, the rest of us have been saying "Hey that's hurtful, maybe apologize" and then you saying "Well I have a disability, therefore it's ableist to expect me to know what's hurtful." To which many of us have said "Wow, ok, it's kind of bad to use disability as an excuse for that instead of apologizing, especially since many of us are also disabled, and you still haven't given us any sort of apology." And now you are saying "OK, tell me what you want to hear so that I can fake being the sort of person who does not say those sorts of thing (while still actually being the sort of person who says that kind of thing.)"
This is how a lot of us have seen the last day or two of conversation. Does that make it any clearer why your behavior is not good right now?
You have insulted pretty much everyone in this thread, you take criticism like a toddler takes nap time, and have made repeated analogies that are as offensive as they are self-serving. The only thing you are owed at this point is time to reflect on your conduct and compose an actual apology to the Boarders you have driven to distraction.
But we don't owe you that.
You owe it to yourself.
*produces basket* *sweeps* Hello, little mini! Nice to meetcha.
~DF
Alright, what more are you looking for in a bio? I had a list of Kelly's tropes, but I didn't write them down. There's a lot of stuff that I won't know until it's actually important. I could try to fill out one of those character charts for her, but I'm one of those people that don't get much useful information from them.
I felt that moving Kelly's immediate family would fix any issues of her home story dissolving back into the MIB canon. I could work with that element, or just have it so she can't go home again. I also had an alternate-universe story in the works where she was rejected from the PPC but managed to get relocated in the Muppet Verse. I admit that it was part of a "take that" against her dealing with unusual situations, and I apologize for getting angry about it.
I'm thinking that since neuralysers can be blocked by brand-name sunglasses, an alien could have the technology to duplicate that effect invisibly. Plus, I seem to recall some agent who came from a space-magic anime getting recruited because her uncanonical computer-book still followed canon rules. The implants are a non-issue unless I go back to Kelly's early days.
I'm calling random incompetence in the name of funny for why the agents didn't get her sent back to her home universe. Or that page about vacations, where the agents hoped for some time off if Kelly was added to the labor pool.
I might have used irreligious wrong. Telling off Aslan, there is probably a workable story in that. Jesus doesn't seem like the type that would smite people just for rejecting him. It's like the Susan problem.
Ingeborg is an alternate name for Injerd. Frankly, I just started with the joke and plan to go from there. I did mention that I write like Tolkien, where I start writing without actually knowing what I am doing.
TBD: Yes, she does have some traits that could become Sueish if I am not careful. I included her because she would raise alarm bells.
The Dollhouse is in the business of creating a perfect person based on the criteria their client specifies. If your perfect date includes a fencing match, then the Active will know how to fence.
What makes the perfect agent might just be a horribly broken model based on what someone's idea of a perfect agent is. In one of the early episodes, Echo was made into a perfect hostage negotiator, that included asthma and the need for glasses because the flaws were part of the persona.
My research about the NWU: My spouse complained about getting new pants and having to get a new blouse because it faded and clashed too badly. My spouse went days without going outside. The fading with TBD's hand-me-down implies that the blouse was too old to be worn as part of a Navy uniform. The dying it black is from spouse's comments on how tacky it looks when civilian contractors prefer to keep wearing their NWU pants, and how spouse wants theirs to be dyed black if they become a contractor.
Those NWU's are nice fabric, and softer than denim even when they are new. I was allowed to try one on for a few minutes in private. I was told that wearing a discarded uniform improperly had levels of acceptability depending on how close the nearest base was.
And lastly is going to be another post.
"Plus, I seem to recall some agent who came from a space-magic anime getting recruited because her uncanonical computer-book still followed canon rules. The implants are a non-issue unless I go back to Kelly's early days."
Ok, as the person who wrote the mission you're referencing? I'm not sure you read that at all.
In Ari's recruitment, the issue was that the Book of Dawn was essentially indestructible from the outside, and that if Ari was killed it would respawn and do Bad Things to the canon in years, causing a huge mess for everyone involved. Ari was given the option of joining the PPC, which she took, and the Book was promptly confiscated and Ari didn't get back until it was very thoroughly de-glittered.
So, the situations are different, because I very much doubt that your Kelly's death would lead to an unkillable uncanonical glitter-consumer of worlds appearing... somewhere.
Just because I can't recall every detail does not mean that I did not read it.
I'm sorry that I didn't realize that there was a "no uncanonical technology without an overriding reason to keep it" rule. Especially since my character doesn't keep it for long enough to be part of any stories I plan to write.
If you're going to use someone else's story as a way to prop up your own agents? Make sure you understand what happens, and that it actually happened as you remember. It's not just some random detail, it's kind of the whole reason Lana and Narav didn't just assassinate her.
And... yeah? Of course. It's a bad idea to bring noncanonical stuff into a canon you're trying to protect.
My agent's backstory is already changed... except in the alternate universe where she was rejected because I still think it's kinda cool.
That's the thing. I'm not looking for a list of her tropes. If what you give us is that, it doesn't tell us anything about her pesonality. I could very easily list a bunch of agents who fall under that first section of 'personality' you gave and they're all entirely different with entirely different personalities. A couple of them are even possibly into reading trashy romance! Who knows!
When fics dissolve into canon, it doesn't explicitly erase everything. Things that are uncanon, explicitly against canon, those things go poof. Things that could exist in canon? Just blur back into it. There are more than a few fanfics out there in all sorts of fandom that can easily coexist with with the canon they are based on, without overwriting anything.
There's a very, very simple reason for why neuralyzers can be blocked by sunglasses: it's a very bright light. If you use (what are presumably UV filtering) sunglasses or similar, it prevents it from working on the people who are looking into the light. There is a reason why in MIB they get the attention of people who weren't supposed to see whatever it is and get them with the flash while their eyes are open. There's no need to overcomplicate things.
'Random incompetence' here isn't in the name of funny. I saw nothing funny about it. It came off more as 'here's a poor excuse'.
If she doesn't favor Narnia- by means of being uncomfortable with the setting's base to that extent- the Flowers would not actually have her working in fics from that universe. They have plenty of canon-knowledgable agents who would not go out of their way to yell at Aslan; the same goes for other canons.
As for... The alternate name thing, that doesn't work. You cannot do those sort of things just because. Tolkein didn't start writing without knowing what he was doing; the resultant works we have today outside of LotR and the Hobbit have alternate names and the like because he was still working on them before he died. They were incomplete. His son left it as such when he was trying to compile everything into fuller works.
Her traits are straight up Sueish. The Perfect Agent does Not Exist. Cannot exist. Would not be able to exist.
As for the NWUs: Yes, they fade. And when the blouse is more faded than the top, it can cause some issues. This is generally alleviated by not using certaind detergents, not standing in the sun for hours on end, and keeping the same sets paired together so they're at least evenly faded. Your spouse's comments on the tackiness are their own.
They are nice fabric, I will agree, but they also can tear like nothing else when abused in the wrong way.
Alright, Kelly's backstory could easily be that they observed her dealing with a roomful of weird aliens and thought that she'd fit in as an agent.
In her previous life, her boss could have just re-educated her every time she was neuralyzed because there's no canonical way to recover lost memories. I just wanted to give her the choice of a special power at a cost and show that she preferred not to take the deal.
Kelly did not go out of her way to yell at Aslan. I don't know what happened yet, but it was probably the first clue that she shouldn't be working in that world.
The alternate name thing has nothing to do with the Tolkien stuff. I do see how you could see it that way. Her alternate name was in case the Injerd joke turned out to be completely un-funny.
Tolkien might have still been working on Lord of the Rings when he died in 1973, (he was working on a revision in 1965) but Wikipedia says that it was published by 1955. What I'm reading came from 1958, but I think they were originally written sooner than that.
Are you aware of the Dollhouse canon? One of their claims is that they can create the perfect date. Sure, it goes wrong any time they need drama, but most of the time it mostly works right. I was just watching a documentary about how Perfect Recall and Inception could become realistic within a generation or so.
When I say that she would be the perfect agent, the Dollhouse technology would create wholecloth someone's idea of the perfect agent. There is room for it to go hilariously wrong once I'm ready to bring her out, if being a programmed person isn't too Sueish.
I'll tell spouse that having a uniform that clashes with the rest of the line isn't tacky because you said so, nevermind what any of the shipmates may say.
I'm not telling your spouse how to dress or what to wear as far as uniform goes. I'm no khaki, I'm no JO or wannabe. I'm just a seaman. I don't control their command or how their divo or department head runs things.
I agreeed that they fade, and it can happen without sunlight. Whether or not they look tacky is your spouse's opinion; it's not yours. Every command has a different view on how stringent to be with regards to uniforms and the peculiarities thereof.
You're welcome to go be a navy spouse and be patronizing to the sailors out in town, or on base. Trust me, we're- we being sailors- all used to it from people who have no business telling us our business.
Don't you dare do it to me here on the board. This is my space, where I don't have to deal with the general flavor of lunacy that goes with being in the military and dealing with people who think that marrying military means they carry their spouse's rank or importance, too.
I'm not replying to any of your other points because they're all wrong and can be easily refuted by someone else.
I'm done speaking to you.
I should have said something earlier, but I'll just say it now. I'm very, very disappointed in the direction this thread took. The Constitution explicitly states we don't assume harmful intent. Bramandin, several times, said they have a disability and are trying to apologize, and BEFORE the thread got heated, people got incredibly aggressive, dogpiled them, and essentially started bullying.
I'd like you all to maybe reread your comments here, after giving a couple days to cool down. I'm shocked and frankly appalled at how quick we are these days to assume a newbie is being a jerk, rather than misunderstanding.
Another point, more specific: July, you do not own the military, you do not own the Navy, and you do not own the 'Board as your (and not others') safe space. Your experience is not the same as Bramandin's spouses, nor as Bramandin's, but that does not make their experience less legitimate or less true than yours, and this response was not at all justified.
If there are so many issues with Bramandin's application (which, by the way, I agree with - the underlying issue is a character is not the same as a bundle of tropes), there's no reason to slam them for having a different perspective than you. What the hell.
I brought the blouse up because within the sample it made no sense to me, given that I actually wear the thing. I was asking for further information on it, because hey, you don't have to have it faded for it to be dyed, was it old or something?
Their response was their spouse talking about uneven fading and difference in uniform colors and their spouse thinking it looks tacky when contractors still wear parts of their old uniform items.
I agreed that yes, they can fade like that, and that it can be alleviated by keeping uniforms paired together by fadedness. I said their spouse's comments on tackiness are their own because said opinions are. They aren't shared by the contractors who had to pay for those uniform items when they were still in and are still wearing them. I don't have strong opinions on the matter.
That is the point at which Bramandin went:
"I'll tell spouse that having a uniform that clashes with the rest of the line isn't tacky because you said so, nevermind what any of the shipmates may say."
This was condescending. This was rude. That was going "My spouse knows more than you and I'm going to tell them someone on the internet thinks they're dumb" when I hadn't said anything of the kind.
This was already after they had told Huinesoron that he doesn't know as much about Tolkien as they did.
At no point did I even approach implying that my word was god, because as far as I was concerned, the matter was still the NWUs and others wearing them- not on Bramandin's spouse looking bad or anything.
I know damned well I don't own the military or the navy, much less the board, and I certainly don't act like it. I said outright in my reply that I'm no one's boss when it comes to the military side.
That said?
I still am not going to put up with being consecended to by someone who thinks only being married to a sailor means they get to tell me what's the what militarywise. Everyone's views differ, you're right. But in all my responses I tried to not get baited by everything Bramandin said, and my question on something that I know and recognize was not out of place. Their reactions were, because at that point nothing had gotten too far out of hand.
I qualified the 'my space' statement for a reason. The PPC is pretty much the only non-military space I've got these days, and while I bring it up time to time, it's not something I want to allow to dominate my time on the board, and certainly not with anything petty like that.
Or am I not allowed to have any escape?
I realized my end of things were getting heated, and I quit the conversation. I haven't responded. I've told other people, in email, to calm down. I've told other people to not jump in for the sake of jumping in.
And you?
You don't get to tell me that my response wasn't justified.
All you seem to do these days if I get involved in anything, or bring anything up is to step in and tell me whatever I said was uncalled for, that I was trying to be an authority for no reason.
I try to avoid stirring up trouble. All the stuff that happened in the past I avoid bringing up unless I feel it's relevant to the situation at hand, because I don't want it impacting the current state of the board, probably more than anyone else.
We say in the Constitution that we're supposed to not assume harmful intent, and you state it right in this post of yours.
You've been assuming harmful intent on my part for years, and I'm getting sick and tired of it.
Whenever you step in on things, it's generally to attack or belittle me, or say that whatever I said was ill willed. Out of step. Out of line. No matter what the other party said, or did. Even if I chose to step out before things got too or I'm not stooping to any of the behaviors the other party is. You condescend. And it's always directed, primarily, at me.
What happened to you?
I realized, as soon as I posted it, that who I was really angry with was Iximaz, not you. I apologize for posting that as a reply to you; it should have gone to the other parts of the thread, it was unfair to make it all about you. I did see your telling Bramandin that their spouse's opinion didn't count, and if you didn't mean it like that, I apologize for misconstruing.
Mostly, if you want me to be honest, I remember you saying, often, that your role was to be blunt and shut people down when others were too polite to do so, and I still read that into your posts. Most of the time I don't read them at all, because I'm hoping that's not the case anymore, but I still get that familiar stab of fear and anxiety, regardless. And if they are, I don't have the guts or the inclination to get into it anymore, anyway.
You can have whatever space you like. Again, this is me responding badly to things that remind me of a certain handful of people around here (and elsewhere; this is a problem not exclusive to PPC space, I understand) who used "safe space" as a way to say "Anything that I disagree with is an attack on my opinion/feelings, and hence unsafe." Again, I realize now that you were saying nothing of the sort, and I do apologize for my short fuse on the subject. It's become such a common shorthand that I react badly.
As a general rule, I don't reply to you . . . pretty much ever, mostly even if I do think you're wrong. Precisely because of the history there, with IRC, with Data, Maslab, Miah, etc. I know full well I haven't let it go, again, because I have a stab of anxiety every time I see something like this come up. So I try to just avoid you, and avoid conflict unless it's something serious. But occasionally, I see someone being dogpiled in a manner that seems incredibly bullying, and feel I should say something. I absolutely should not have said it to you. I wasn't paying enough attention to context, jumped to conclusions, assumed harmful intent, and was overall a dick. I'm sorry for that.
As to what happened to me - someone I considered a friend was manipulative towards me and others, and lashed out at me repeatedly, until I stopped trusting them, stopped considering them a friend, and eventually stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt. It's not entirely your fault; someone else did this same thing at about the same time everything went so wrong here, and I think, in hindsight, I'm projecting the fallout from both relationships onto you, since I no longer interact with him.
Tl;dr - you're right, I've been a jerk, and I'm sorry.
I stand by what I said about dogpiling, bullying, assuming the worst, and GOOD LORD the disability conversation, what the heck is going on here, but you are absolutely right that you deserved none of that, and I apologize.
I definitely wasn't trying to imply their spouse's opinion didn't count; thus the agreement about the fading. It's a problem with the fabric. The 'contractors shouldn't wear NWUs' is a hot topic sort of issue. Some people feel very strongly on the matter. I was mostly just trying to avoid that in the first place because I don't have strong opinions on people wearing them after they get out. It's just a weird thing in general that can't really get explained properly, I guess.
As for what I used to say: Blunt is not the same thing as rude or insulting. Not always. I try to not be rude. The same thing with insults. Being straightforward isn't the same as being a jerk, and I try to avoid the latter. I'm sorry that my posts give you a spike of anxiety.
I agree that the phrase 'safe space' has been overused and in many ways invalidated; disagreement isn't unsafe or inherently unhealthy. Using it as such destroys the ability for there to be real safe spaces for people who need it.
As for everything that happened before with the IRC: I've noticed. I do similar myself, because it's better to avoid it instead of giving opportunity for things to get rehashed again, and again, and again. It's not healthy for the people involved or the community.
About the other person you had a falling out with: I know I don't know the whole story, but I think I remember the person you're talking about, since you had brought them up fairly often when we were still talking (if it is indeed the same person, which I suspect) and I'm very sorry that happened. It sucks when that sort of thing happens. It can screw things up for years.
I do agree that there was an awful lot of dogpiling going on; I was planning on saying something this morning (for me, I'm currently 10~ hours ahead of the US, give or take a few), before I saw your reply to me.
Thank you for the apology. It means a lot. I had treasured our friendship quite a bit when we had it.
-July
I'm sorry for bringing anything military into your safe place. You have actually taught me a valuable lesson in not letting military things into our apartment when we actually move in together. I did not mean to be patronizing, I have no right to repeat his experiences as if they are valid.
While saying that "my points are wrong" was technically correct, there was need for explanations. Thank you for letting other people tackle that argument in a reasonable manner and letting me know that I was wrong without implying that I was stupid.
You are aware that you sound incredibly patronising, right? July's problem with you isn't "bringing anything military into [her] safe place" — especially considering she wrote this with me a while back — her problem, as far as I understand it, is that you're being patronising and thinking that having a spouse in the Navy means you know everything about the navy.
Frankly, you owe her an apology.
I am sorry...
I am sorry for holding my spouse's point of view as truth. For thinking that I know anything because of being a spouse. I am ignorant even thought I'm the one who sews his patches on if I'm visiting when it needs to be done.
I am sorry. One of the old classmates recycled a uniform into a pirate costume corset, and she got mocked for being a spouse wearing the colors. I should have taken that as a caution to show more respect even though she was in her rights. I was not in my rights to let one of my characters wear a worn-out uniform even with a dye-job.
Did I miss anything? It's alright to bluntly tell me if I missed anything.
Bramandin, I'm operating under the assumption that you sincerely want to apologize, but don't quite understand why it's not working and everyone is upset. If you're actually using sarcasm on purpose, I shall be very upset that I wasted my time trying to help, so I hope that's not the case.
Lemme take this one piece at a time:
1.1. I am sorry for holding my spouse's point of view as truth. For thinking that I know anything because of being a spouse.
The trouble with this is that it's quite reasonable to assume that your spouse is telling the truth, so nobody would blame you for that. Apologizing for something that isn't actually wrong sounds false.
1.2. I am ignorant even thought I'm the one who sews his patches on if I'm visiting when it needs to be done.
Here you're qualifying your apology. Perhaps you think you're just explaining your thought process, but what we read into it is this: "I am saying what I think you want to hear, even though, because of [this fact], I don't actually believe I'm wrong and I will therefore continue to think and behave exactly the same as I have been."
I don't know anything about the military, military uniforms, or the culture of military spouses, so I'll say nothing about that.
So, that's how NOT to apologize.
What you SHOULD apologize for is the offense, insult, and/or hurt feelings you've given. You SHOULD say that you will remember what others have told you is offensive/hurtful to them—repeating what you've been told in your own words is helpful so that people know whether or not you do understand—and promise to avoid repeating those mistakes in the future.
It's fine to explain what led you to make the mistake, but nobody actually wants you to apologize for those circumstances. They just want you to acknowledge that you offended or hurt them and let them know that you respect them enough to not purposefully do it again.
I hope that clears things up and that I haven't given you the benefit of the doubt in vain.
~Neshomeh
I honestly am apologizing when I'm not sure what I did wrong, or if I did wrong at all, and I'm trying to remember that what seems okay to me isn't okay for someone else.
And trying as hard as I can to figure out what you want to hear. It's an in-grained habit, and I'll try to stop it. I just have so much trouble trying to figure out how other people think.
I'm also backing down when people are saying things that are not true and being really hurtful to me.
I'll try to make adjustments to my mask, but I'm not sure if it's going to turn out right.
Right now, this thread is a complicated mess and I need help finding which things to apologize for. Could a volunteer pick it apart and present it in a way that I can understand?
I am not being sarcastic. I am honestly trying as hard as I can and it's not good enough. It's like trying to tell a parapelegic that he's not trying hard enough when he can't sprint up the stairs.
I request that all of the greivances be clearly stated so that I know what you took offence at and what I should avoid.
Let me tell you something, as a part-time chair user: there is a massive difference between being physically incapable of something and having problems socializing.
Don't try to draw a comparison where there is none.
I forgot that since there's something wrong with my brain, I'm not the same sort of disabled as the people who are incapable of standing up.
...to kindly point you to this Tumblr post. Especially tenaflyviper's brilliant addition, part of which I will quote below to emphasize the point I wish to make. (The original has explicit language, which I've censored here, but the point is the same.)
IF YOU WEREN’T DIAGNOSED WITH IT BY A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, STOP [BLEEP]ING CLAIMING THAT YOU HAVE IT. AND STOP PRETENDING TO BE VICTIMS WHENEVER PEOPLE RIGHTFULLY CRITICIZE YOU, OR USING CONDITIONS YOU DON’T EVEN [BLEEP]ING HAVE TO TRY TO GET OUT OF TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR YOUR OWN POOR BEHAVIOR. Illnesses and disorders aren’t a [BLEEP]ing country club. You can’t just demand your way into them just so you can feel “oppressed” out of your own privileged guilt. Stop lowering the value of others’ genuine suffering just because you crave sympathy-based attention.
IF YOU WANT SO DESPERATELY TO FEEL “SPECIAL”, GROW A [BLEEP]ING PERSONALITY.
Guess what! Self-diagnoses can be accurate as well! Sure, some people are looking for attention, but a ton more people either can't afford to see a doctor, or for various legal reasons don't want diagnoses on their records (guess how many legal barriers can jump up to stop autistic people from adopting kids, and that's just an example off the top of my head.) If you do your research right, there's no reason why a self-diagnoses can't be just as accurate as a doctor-given one, and frankly a lot of the time those official diagnoses amount to 'hey doc I think I have this thing' 'hm take this questionnaire/wait while I look it up, ok yeah that sounds right.'
In short? Shut up and know what you're talking about before you start citing tumblr of all places.
Reading this whole fiasco, and especially this particular portion regarding mental disorders, made me irrationally angry and as someone with Aspergers who DOESN'T use it as an excuse to bargain out of my own mistakes, I couldn't stop myself trying to have a say in this. The keyword being trying, because part of the reason that I never get involved in Internet drama is because I know that literally anything and everything I say can and will backfire on me in some way (as it did here).
You also bring up a very good point regarding self-diagnosing - it's just that the cases where people "self-diagnose" just to get attention stand out more and make people automatically assume that ALL such instances, legit or no, are for that purpose alone. That was the very mistake I made just now, and I apologize for that as well.
And yes, the irony that I rashly quoted Tumblr in response to a drama that wouldn't have looked out of place on the seedier side of that site is not lost on me.
Considering your vitriol was directed at Bramandin.
That does not change my sentiment that Bramadin's refusal to apologize in general is wrong, however. I won't get involved in this any further from now on, but I won't be surprised if they ultimately get at least temporarily banned if they keep behaving like this, either. Bram really does need some time to think about what they've been doing.
Bramadin is not getting banned.
At this point in time the one who's crossed the most lines in this whole debacle of a thread is probably you, unless you are somehow insisting you also need a temporary ban or something, if you feel their behavior merits it?
Please stop relying to all of this.
Right now. That was way over the line.
That there? That's not an apology. Not for what you said. You said something actually offensive and you're dancing around admitting that you didn't think through what you said in an attempt to score points in an argument, and that in doing so you hurt someone.
You want to talk to someone with depression, ADHD, and complex PTSD about having "something wrong with [their] brain"? You really want to try to justify your behavior with something like that?
Having "something wrong with [your] brain" is not an excuse. Neshomeh explained quite clearly how not to apologize and apparently you're not listening.
I listen, I'm just slow to comprehend. Especially when people anger me by making wrong assumptions about how I think.
I am concerned about your behavior. I may have hit a trigger with the wheelchair analogy, but did you really mean to belittle my social disorder and call it not a disability? Would you like it if someone said that needing the wheelchair was the only thing wrong with you? If one of your mental problems kept you in bed, isn't that being incapable of functioning?
You are flat-out wrong when you declare that I didn't follow advice. I'm sorry that I started a new files so that you didn't have the opportunity to see me trying the advice that I agreed with. I'm sorry that I also didn't have an opportunity to thank you properly.
Thank you for advising that I should cheat by looking for a prompt that would work. Thank you also for clarifying what I couldn't do.
It annoys me when you have an all-or-nothing attitude. I'm not trying to throw a pity party, I'm looking for a sign that you're making an effort in understanding my position.
The person with ADHD, depression and PTSD?
You were talking to her. It's Iximaz.
Don't use mental disorders as an excuse for your behavior. I don't. I have Asperger's, depression, ADHD, and I suspect several others because I'm genetically predisposed to mental illness.
But when I act like an irresponsible, borderline-hedonistic idiot and my family gets onto me about it, I don't blame my disorders. I blame the fact that I'm an irresponsible, borderline-hedonistic idiot. (which my dad says is no better and he hates my constant self-insult, but eh)
Look, just... nobody here has been getting onto you for thinking differently. People have been getting onto you because frankly, you're acting really, REALLY condescending and rude.
I'm not saying that a social disorder isn't a disability. I've seen people whose minds fared far worse than mine in coming into the world. Hell, I've spoken to a dude who honestly thinks that he's going to take over the world.
But! You haven't shown any signs of a disorder from what I've seen. You've shown obliviousness, ignorance, and active dismissal. You've shown the signs of someone who doesn't really care about what others think or say.
I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, because I don't like saying bad things about people, but that's what I'm seeing from you.
Blunt is fine. Blunt is desired. I'm honestly trying to figure things out and I feel like a dog who doesn't know that he's walked into a group of cats.
I feel like my attempts to explain myself are getting brushed-off and ignored. I also think I'm saying "this is annoying me" and people don't even try to explain that they weren't meaning it that way.
A lot of what I'm saying here honestly doesn't look to me the way that everyone seems to be interpreting it. I'm trying to stand up for myself without being rude, and I guess I'm using a bad set of scripts.
Maybe you could help me with the scripts that work in this group. I am offering to change my mask to please people.
First, reread what I just said. Carefully. Make sure you understand every word.
Then, do so for the entire thread. Your own posts and those of the Permission Givers.
None of us were abrasive or angry until you started leveling accusations and making excuses.
See, your problem is that you're not apologizing for your behavior. Your apologies have all been backhanded, sarcastic, and only made everyone angrier because even as you "apologized," you kept being a jerk.
There's no script here. You're not really standing up for yourself. You've gotten half the Board up in arms because you hit the buttons of almost all of them. Myself included.
is not helping your cause.
This? This right here?
A shining example of your patronizing, passive-aggressive attitude.
Knock it off.
Hey Chucklehead! It's your fault that they tease you.
There's some pretty big difference between passive aggressive, aggressive aggressive, and talking to people clearly and politely. Learn it.
I try to be polite, you get angry. I try to say that I'm sympathetic, you say I'm condescending. I try to tell someone that they're being ableist, they say I'm the one who's being difficult.
I CANNOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO INTERACT WITH YOU!
I've read every post here, every attempted and alleged apology you've given, and loathe as I am to dogpile people, I have a stake in this. You have grievously insulted two dear friends of mine and have the temerity to whine about the fallout from your own actions. You are behaving in a way that would embarrass me at my worst.
Protip: that's not a good idea.
Here's what you should do. Apologise. Actually apologise. Back down. Admit you were wrong. Take on board the justifiable criticisms levelled at you by a lot of experienced PPC writers. And then, for the sake of all that is holy, stop digging.
This is all I have to say on the subject, but that is only a testament to my powers of self-restraint. Whenever I get angry, I take a step back, and take a breath, and work out why I'm angry at people and why they have cause to be angry at me. Try it sometime. Sometime soon.
I apologize for not following their advice even though I did.
I apologize for not giving them proper praise for pointing out what was wrong even when I knew that already.
I apologize for thinking that standing up for my own point of view wasn't wrong.
I apologize for thinking that "you're not trying hard enough" was ableist.
I apologize for thinking that mental disabilities are real problems on the same scale as not being able to walk.
I'm sorry for thinking that I was somehow special and that I shouldn't be derided for my non-conformist actions.
Your sarcastic apologies do not help your cause. Your mental disability is not an excuse for passive-aggressiveness or insulting other people. Your actions aren't non-conformist, they're insulting, rude and... I should probably stop with this now. "You're not trying hard enough" — because you clearly aren't, not because of ableism in my part; if I was actually ableist I'd have to level the same charge at, for example, Silenthunder when she wrote her first mission (FYI, Iximaz, DawnFire and I gave her three pages of concrit, which she actually responded very well to and improved her mission greatly).
Frankly, I'm not looking for praise. I'm trying to get you to understand that you're insulting other people — I've lost count on how many toes you've stepped; mine, Iximaz's, Firemagic's, July's, Huinesoron's, Scapegrace's... So far, it doesn't look like you get it, since even a clear list like Neshomeh's isn't clear enough.
You did not follow anyone's advice.
We were not looking for praise, so stop acting like we're self-entitled divas.
You're not so much standing up for your own point of view as being condescending towards others.
It wasn't, at least in an instance like this.
Apples and oranges, dude.
And now you're trying to get a pity party thrown in your favor. Forgive me for being unimpressed.
This is because your 'polite' is condescension and passive-aggression. And you have yet to prove that anyone has BEEN ableist, and that is a serious accusation. Levelling it at people to win an Internet fight is kind of awful!
Just. Talk straightforwardly. Don't insult anyone, just say what you mean as calmly as you can without goading anyone or trying to score points.
I didn't do any of those things.
Have you read Neshomeh's explanation of where she feels your apologies are going wrong? I think it's very good, and well worth your attention.
hS
You could try not shouting, hurling accusations of ableism, and posting insults.
"In her previous life, her boss could have just re-educated her every time she was neuralyzed because there's no canonical way to recover lost memories."
Yeah that's not true? At all? The second movie and the cartoon both had De-Neuralyzers. There are only two ever mentioned, but they exist. 15 seconds on google found that out.
Also, why exactly would a FicPsych doctor actually try and shape a blank-slate person into being a 'Perfect Agent'? I'm pretty sure that they'd care more about making a person.
Sorry, I was being deliberately ignorant to agree with a point. I get a very "agree with me or else" vibe here.
---------------------
In the first two episodes of the second season of Dollhouse, it was discussed how Dollhouse technology could make a complete person within parameters. I don't have the exact quotes handy, but "You needed to be complete." "You developed that trait yourself." "I did that so this wouldn't happen."
There is actually a story I was looking at where Topher Brink should be dead according to canon, but a Sue!wraith changed things so that he was alive. Basically I was wanting to set up a Schrodinger situation where a dead canon character either chose to accept his canon death or work for the PPC.
----------
In short, I think that Dollhouse technology could be the next step above the cultural implant machine. I wouldn't want too many agents to be subjected to that, but I wanted to introduce an extreme case that would be a candidate for that sort of treatment.
What - why? That doesn't make a bit of sense. You said that something very obviously untrue was true, when people were asking you to provide a good argument. And now you're saying that pointing out 'Hey, you are completely incorrect here' is tantamount to 'agree with me or else?'
Also? Trying to change a reasonably important aspect of the PPC for your new agents? Not the best plan.
PS: that's not how Schrodinger's cat works, at all. Schrodinger's cat is either alive or dead until it's observed. Giving someone the option of either dying or working at the PPC? Not the same thing.
I've been in other circles where I got mercilessly attacked for not agreeing with the guy who was obviously wrong. I apologize for using that survival tactic here, and for feeling like I had to use it.
The Topher Brink thing was a case of "this happened" and whether he exists in the PPC depends on whether everyone else agrees that it's okay for him to still be alive.
The technology... maybe it's not okay to introduce new technology to the PPC ever. I'll accept that "extreme measure" technology that's only mentioned once may be too powerful to consider even in extreme circumstances.
Did you just say that July pointing out that there's no canon support for anti-neuralyzer implants is obviously wrong? I do hope that I'm misreading that, because if I am not - stop digging, buddy, you don't need to try and do more attacking of people who are just stating facts. And insinuating that you thought the rest of the Board would mercilessly attack you for no good reason - I don't even know where to start with that.
There is no canonical support for anti-nueralyser implants, as far as I know. There probably would have been if the cartoon-series needed one. It does seem like a plausible addition to the universe.
And yes, I am still getting the vibe that if I disagree with the wrong thing, I'm going to get attacked.
It's not about introducing something new - it's the fact that it crosses a moral line the PPC's not supposed to.
Giving a personality implant just makes a blank bit character develop an idetity - what you're suggesting is to basically have someone in the PPC literally construct a "perfect" PPC Agent.
There's an organization appearing in PPC's history that does build perfect characters. It's called the League of Mary Sue Factories. They are perfect, they can do no wrong.
PPC Agents shouldn't be perfect. It's what makes them human.
I've always been very adamant that FicPsych can't simply hand someone a personality, both in-universe and out. {= )
That said, I have seen Dollhouse and I understand what Bramandin is trying to do. But I agree with Sergio: FicPsych wouldn't do it. It's too close to what the LMSF do, and it runs counter to what Dr. Freedenberg has said in-character about personality coming with experience. I reckon he'd view a Dollhouse personality as fake, because it is.
~Neshomeh
Schrödinger's cat is an example of why Erwin Schrödinger hated the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.
His point was that it was absolute nonsense that the cat was in two discrete (quantum) states at the same time. It's one or the other whether you open the box or not. Unfortunately for him, the Copenhagen interpretation is still the most popular interpretation of QM.
That the Bashir Hologram is part of the PPC.
And http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Team_Phoenix
Nowadays, using actual canon character is pretty frowned upon, as... well, they're not our characters.
What actually can happen is to recruit a Character Replacement that has chances of redempiton - they're fairly rare though, but them looking for a life of their own while trying to cast off their "previous identity" makes for good character development. Still, they have to be their own person in all respects, not just a carbon copy of a canon character.
Team Phoenix's missions are eight years old and under review, as the wiki page that you're referencing specifically states. So their canonicity is dubious.
"It's really quite complicated, but the original canonicals remain where they should be." What you're wanting to do isn't this at all.
And on the subject of Team Phoenix, Chatvert had this to say.
As for the hologram, a program is a vastly different thing from a canon character.
I did mention that I write like Tolkien, where I start writing without actually knowing what I am doing.
That is in no way, shape, or form writing like Tolkien.
hS
I got distracted from reading "Return of the Shadow, so I didn't get past the four included drafts of the party scene..."
"When he first put pen to paper he wrote in large letters 'When M' but he stopped before completing the final stroke of the M and wrote instead 'When Bilbo...'
Also, in a letter, "So goodness knows what will happen." Though that refers to when he was thinking about Silmarils instead of a sequel to the Hobbit.
I might be able to pull up some bookmarks about the subject, but I won't put forth the effort to even check if you are not interested.
Tolkien was first and foremost creating languages, and the world and mythos that would support and result in such languages.
As for the items you are describing, any writer can tell you that they're common enough items.
Things change with each draft of a story- details get refined, things get moved around so that the whole story moves better as a whole. The first draft is usually the roughest- while you have an idea of what you want, you don't necessarily know how it will happen because you have to work out all the details so that the story is consistent, and that everything set within is resolved as appropriate.
Changing what a line is going to say, and who is the actor within a line is nothing new, again- things change, perhaps this character or that one instead will suit it better or had not recieved as much focus.
People are more than allowed to change their plans, or heaven forbid, be unsure what projects they will work on, and the details of such. I just restarted a story I'm working on because I realized that a different angle would suit my goals and intents with said story better; not because I don't know what I'm doing. The same would certainly go with Tolkein, and even more so with him.
Authors have the fiat and author- (heh) -ity when it comes to their works. There are all sort of paths to getting there, and those often change, but it doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing, even if they are actually making it up as they go along for the first draft, instead of having things plotted out.
Things change while writing, and the tale grows in the telling - and yes, names change around, too, especially if you're a linguistics professor with a profound appreciation for the sound of words. But that is in no way the same thing as not knowing what you're doing.
Tolkien wrote copious notes on where he expected LotR to go, and rewrote them on multiple occasions. A lot of the ideas in them got thrown out. New ones came in along the way - "I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but here he came walking into the woods of Ithilien". But at no point was he just sitting there going 'meh, dunno, let's just write some words'.
I have read the entire History of Middle-earth cover-to-cover. I promise I know what I'm talking about. ;)
hS
When you asked me and Des for advice, I knew it was being ignored, but I didn't realize it was to this extent.
I'm just going to let one of the other PGs deal with this. :/
I'm sorry for not showering you with chocolates when I said that my characters were getting meta because they were doing things that weren't in-character for them to do, and that you pointed out that they were being meta.
I wasn't ignoring your advice, I was considering your advice, and I did eventually decide to cheat and find a prompt that would happen to them instead of being initiated willingly. I'm sorry that I didn't say "sir yes sir" and just do what you said without thinking about it first or getting clarification on the initial problem.
Since the chat closed, you might have said something else useful that I didn't notice at the time. I did ask Desdendell to re-iterate and he hasn't gotten back to me.
Perhaps Desdendell didn't share my concerns with you. They did include how irritated I was that you called my asking for help "hand holding" and how it made me feel. He also hasn't responded back to how I pointed out his accidental ableism.
Hey, you asked for betas for a reason. Betas do not expect to be treated as the earthly manifestation of the Writing Gods, but a certain amount of respect for their suggestions is a good idea. And treating betas doing their job like they suggested you do everything they say no questions asked is very rude.
Also, mind having some sources for Des? Because calling someone ableist is pretty serious and I've never known Des to not apologize when he is in the wrong.
You didn't want time to think about what you had done. You complained that the prompts were too general and didn't give you enough direction. And then you complained they were too strict and you couldn't 'write your agents to fit'.
You demanded you be allowed to go against the Permission system because you have a learning disability that 1) you had never mentioned before until you decided you didn't like things how they were and 2) shouldn't matter, because a learning disability is not an excuse for bad writing. There are multiple Boarders here, myself included, who have learning disabilities and we got Permission the same way everyone else did.
On top of your rotten behavior you displayed while asking for help, you've now insulted, what, six Boarders? Seven? More? with no signs of stopping, or so much as a hint of an apology.
Cut the crap, suck it up, and realize you need to do better on your next request, assuming you don't keep up this behavior.
The short of it that I was having trouble with the prompts. I think that you were curious about how I'd do without the prompts...
Desdendell said that it was okay to do whatever I needed to do to understand my agents better. I'll start writing them into missions and see if I'm happy with how they work before asking for further feedback. I just haven't gotten to that yet.
I didn't demand, I asked for reasonable acommodation or using the same system you did and you kept saying no. I THINK I WOULD DO WELL WITH TRYING TO GET PERMISSION THE WAY THAT YOU DID.
I apologize for the capslock, but I think that yelling was somewhat called-for.
I apologize for what you call "rotten behavior" could you please point out what I did wrong so that I can adjust my scripts?
"Cut the crap, suck it up, and realize you need to do better on your next request, assuming you don't keep up this behavior."
I apologize for only giving 90%, but I don't think that even 200% of my efforts will be good enough for you... and that feels like a backward way of saying "you're not trying hard enough" as an excuse for why 'it's being presented in a difficult way' is my fault.
The rest, I'm not even going to bother attempting to explain. If the last twenty times didn't work, then twenty-one isn't going to make a difference.
I understand that you feel upset because I might have missed a piece of good advice or didn't immediately praise you for pointing out that I could cheat.
What I am upset about is that you called my asking for help "hand holding" as if I'm less valueable because I couldn't do a certain task in the way that it was phrased.
And for the record, the twenty-first explanation was once the right one. I don't remember you explaining the twenty variants, perhaps you could list those again.
I called it hand-holding because you spent a good ten minutes complaining that the prompts didn't offer you enough guidance. Me suggesting you try it the old way was completely rhetorical: as I explained multiple times, the only 'prompt' you got was "Write something about 400 words long". If you think the current prompts didn't give you enough guidance, I'd say that's about as hand-holdy as you can get.
When you changed track and started insisting the prompts were too restrictive... well, I'm not you. I can't fathom what possibly goes on in your mind and quite frankly I don't care to since you seem hell-bent on making as many people mad as possible.
Can you post the chat, because I think that I was complaining that the prompts weren't working from the beginning, not that there wasn't enough guidance.
I thought that I had asked to just do something off-the-cuff and that you had said "no." If I could just write anything to showcase my agents in a funny way, I might do better.
You can't fathom what goes on in my mind because unless you're the same type of neurodiverse that I am, you're probably working off of the neurotypical model.
I am not trying to make people mad. If someone comes up with a very direct list of what I did wrong, I will try to apologize.
Since firemagic covered the other stuff I wanted to say, here's the rest:
"If I could just write anything to showcase my agents in a funny way, I might do better." Yeah, at the rate you're going, I doubt anyone will be willing to make an exception for you. You're just digging yourself in deeper at this rate, buddy, and if you need a list to tell you what you did wrong then you're not going to last much longer.
This chat happened in a Google doc, right? Then there's basically no way to recover logs.
Also, write anything to showcase agents in a funny way - why isn't that something you could do as a normal prompt? Writing humor is pretty important, and a lot of the setups in the prompts are for joke material. So what's the problem?
Ok, that neurotypical model thing? Stop. Believe it or not, a lot of PPCers have neurodivergence one way or another, and guess what, they shouldn't have to out themselves and their diagnoses to get it through someone's head that they know what they're talking about. And someone refusing to do so is not a reason to say that they just don't understand what they are saying.
*offers the basket to Desdendelle*
These really are rather nice ones, aren't they? All flowered, and stuff (as opposed to looking like Dell computers, which would seem to be their other probably manifestation). Kind of fun that you can get something like that from your name; I don't think I could get a flowering mini-me if I tried.
~DF
One of the agents gets a new partner.
In {RC number,} Kelly was lounging in an office chair and reading “The Giver.” She thought that the book was alright, but it wasn’t something that she would have chosen. She really didn’t feel passionately about anything that was popular enough to have fanfiction, so she mostly dealt in canons where their departments were overwhelmed, or where no one had admitted to liking them.
The console [bip]ed, and Kelly read the message. She was happy that she wouldn’t have to be without a partner for too long this time, though also a little bit disappointed that she was losing her last one. She had actually hoped that he would beat the statistics, but she knew that there was always something that could go wrong.
There was a heavy knock at the door, and Kelly answered it. A grizzly bear was sitting in the middle of the hallway in front of her door. If it had been standing upright, it probably would have been between eight or nine feet tall. It had a gruff female voice. “I am Injerd.”
“Do you need me to open a portal to Medical?” Kelly knew that there were intelligent beasts running around Headquarters, and she had dealt with far stranger than that even before she joined the PPC.
The bear shook her head. “My name is Injerd. You may also call me Ingeborg or simply Ing if you must. Someone in orientation thought that it would be funny to introduce myself by saying ‘I am.’ I was told that I was assigned to {RC}.”
Kelly glanced at the plate on her door just in case her number had been changed again. She didn’t mind working with an animal, despite what happened last time. “Come on in. My name’s Kelly Stone.”
Injerd rocked forward and then walked through the door on all fours. She then looked at the couch and took a seat in front of the bookcase instead.
“I’ve just got to pack up my last partner’s stuff,” Kelly said, grabbing a cardboard box.
“What happened to him?” Ing asked.
“It was a mistake,” Kelly said dismissively, though she felt a bit guilty. Once she had learned that zabvronians gain nourishment from reading, she should have realized that he shouldn’t have been looking at the words in a bad grammar fic. Kelly just hoped that Mike Ditka would recover from his equivalent of food poisoning eventually.
Kelly then smiled. “Why don’t you tell me about yourself so I can get to know you better?” She wasn’t really curious about Ing’s personal life, but the more she knew about her new partner, the more likely it was that she could make up for any of her shortcomings.
“I come from Narnia. I was but a cub when King Peter and his siblings disappeared.” Ing paused. “The details of my life are hard to remember, as if they’re from a dream.”
Kelly wasn’t too concerned. She knew that some people didn’t have much of a past to work with. “Do you know how to hide and sneak around? What about fighting?”
Ing paused a moment before answering. “I was not trained to fight against Calormenes, but I do know how to defend myself. As for sneaking, I believe that I will learn quickly.”
Kelly hated having to figure things out as she went along, but such was the nature of being an agent, especially one who was always given fresh recruits as temporary partners.
... the purpose of the samples.
(I'm basing this purely on your second sample, since the first (as Hardric said) isn't accessible.)
There's a couple of reasons we ask you to write something for this.
1/ To see if you can spell, punctuate, etc. Great, you can.
2/ To see if you can show us your agents' character through your writing. I haven't read the bios, so what do I know about your agents' personalities?
-Kelly doesn't have strong emotions about things (eg, books), or emotional reactions to things (eg, bear, injured partner).
-Ing... may have a sense of humour, or may not realise she was being mocked for her name, or may not care.
That's... it. Your story shows me absolutely nothing of their characters. Given the "I have stated a fact about myself, now please state a fact about yourself" feel of the latter part, I'm not convinced they are characters.
3/ To see if you can capture the feel of the PPC.
Um... yeah, no. Change a few of the words around, and this could take place in any office.
So here's my question: what appeals to you, personally, about the PPC setting? What aspects of it do you enjoy reading about, thinking about? And how can you work those into even such a short story as this one?
PG hat is not being worn right now, though it's definitely to hand.
hS
Since my work has been brought up, I have to know:
1. Precisely what gave you the image of Ilraen as a giant snail? From where I sit, it can't have been "Ilraen's Journal," because he doesn't describe himself at all there, and it can't have been "Introducing Ilraen," because there are enough details there to dispel the image, assuming you read the whole thing.
2. Precisely what information are you referring to when you say I could have given the same in third person? Also, are you talking about the interlude "Ilraen's Journal," or Ilraen and Nume's character journal on Dreamwidth?
3. Do you truly believe that knowing what Ilraen is equates to knowing who Ilraen is, or was that just an unfortunate choice of words?
~Neshomeh
Ilraen was arguing with a radioactive spider who had shut himself in the bathroom. Or maybe I have the wrong character altogether.
Was that the same story that pointed out how they were slant-eyed because it was anime?
I was talking about Ilraen's journal. I apologize for not considering that his observations might be telling about his personality. The and Nume character journal looks interesting when I have time.
Knowing what someone is... it's only useful if they fit into their planet of hats. I think that DS9 presented Quark as 1/3 recurring ferengi and he was the only regular that fit the steriotype.
I remember once reading about an alien who liked cinnamon buns, and his observations on how humans liked squares. Is that the same hat?
Is there any chance at all you could give the title/s of the story/stories you read? Then I might be able to figure out where you're getting radioactive spiders and slanted eyes, because right now... okay, I can guess where those might be coming from, but those aren't words I've ever actually used in a story, AFAIK.
I'd recommend not looking at the character journal, actually. Most of it probably won't make any sense without having read my spin-off and knowing the context that sparked the entry.
I'll have to disagree that knowing what someone is is only relevant if they fit in. How Ilraen is different from most Andalites is actually a crucial component of his identity and character arc.
The cinnamon-bun-liking alien is indeed an Andalite, like Ilraen. His name is Aximili. (Using the names of things generally helps people to understand what you're talking about.)
~Neshomeh
The slanted eyes wasn't a direct term... it just seemed odd for an anime setting. Something about the eyelid fold.
The radioactive spider occurred with a character who wasn't modest about using the showers in the gym.
So, the mission you're talking about is "Blood Raining Night," which is quite far into my spin-off. I did try making that one accessible to newcomers, but I also included an author's note recommending that people do some background reading on the PPC and RC 999 first, or at least keep the wiki open while reading. As hS said, starting in the middle of a series is rarely the best way to get to know the characters.
I described Nume (and the others by extension) as gaining an epicanthic fold because he had taken on the appearance of a Japanese person, and that's a feature they have that Caucasians generally don't. (FYI, "slanted eyes" has such a history of being used in a derogatory manner that it has incredibly racist overtones. Don't describe Asian people that way; you will give offense if you do.) Yes, the continua involved were animated, but I like to think of the characters as real flesh-and-blood beings regardless of the medium.
The "radioactive spider" is a mini-Aragog. They are not radioactive. I'm not planning to turn any of my agents into Spider-Man anytime soon. ^_~
~Neshomeh
(So sorry, couldn't resist.)
Ahahaha, that's awesome. "Meow." Because why not, amirite?
I love the design on the shell, truly. ^_^
~Neshomeh, adding this to her fanart gallery.
Still, glad you liked it. :P
Aha, it seems my ignorance of post-90s cartoons strikes again. But I still like it. ^_^
~Neshomeh
1/ You couldn't turn 'two people meet' into a good one-page story. That's pretty worrying.
2/ You can think of four things off the top of your head that would be interesting to read about your agents doing in their RC, but chose not to do any of them - or anything.
3/ You like it when missions interpret things literally. That's great! I do too. ^_^ Did you know you can write that in HQ, too? There's a scene in Crashing Down where one agent uses a literal pun to break out of prison - and of course, "it's a bit of a maze, unless you hadn't noticed...".
4/ Kelly is there to be a backdrop to Ing, but you don't have a personality for Ing. I think you just sent the backing vocals on before the band showed up...
5/ You don't know the word 'Andalite'. That's fine, Animorphs is pretty old.
6/ You got the key information - that Ilraen (I guess?) is an alien - but think it's crucially important that you know exactly what kind of alien. You also either don't read people's stories in order ('Introducing Ilraen' would be the place to start here) or have an aversion to looking up unfamiliar species-names. The former is something I've never understood, but lots of people do; the latter doesn't make sense to me if you think knowing the details is important.
7/ You don't like a particular story (Ilraen's Journal, I assume), and don't approve of Neshomeh's stylistic decision to showcase her character through a first-person journal. Given how much of Ilraen's character shines through that story in ways that would not come out in third-person (such as his writing style, his comments about Nume, and his emotional responses to things), I am forced to conclude that:
8/ You are not someone who particularly registers personality in stories you read.
And, y'know, that's actually fine. I border on that myself sometimes - I usually read stories for their setting and/or plot, not for the characters.
But.
But I do make an effort to write my characters with personalities. I even try to make them differ from each other (with varying success). On present showing, you haven't done that, and haven't shown that you think you should.
July's already given a verdict, but in case there's any doubt: I would deny Permission at this time if it hadn't already been done.
hS
Not like working in a less professional real world job. Things go strange. The PPC is, essentially, a meta-reality. HQ itself can be considered fairly pliable in a lot of ways- even a relatively 'normal' job there isn't.
To throw a few examples in:
The cafeteria workers don't have access to a normal logistics supply; some of them have to go into canons to get the ingredients and supplies themselves! They occasionally make due with random things agents bring in! Sometimes the food gains sentience and wrecks things!
The secretarial pool deals with their own set of problems, too. Terri Ryan- to use an example that belongs to hS- occasionally ends up with the mission reports we as the readers and writers see and produce- not whatever it is they presumably turn in in HQ.
The janitors are largely hallucinogenic plants, with the occasional human thrown in.
The guys who make sure the agents haven't succesfully burned down or otherwise destroyed HQ fully use concrit as a cement, and other materials that don't actually exist and sometimes exploit the weird nature of HQ just to get their job done.
HQ is definitely not normal and whether you're in action or infrastructure while some things are similar enough to a real world work environment, it really isn't at all.
2. There are ways to do it and stil have her be interesting. Subdued characters don't have to be boring or plain.
If you read through a whole spinoff from the start, you will know the characters present in said spinoff are and what they are supposed to be. Generally, picking up in the middle of anything isn't the best of ideas because you lose out on a lot of information.
The journal you're talking about was not a waste of first person perspective- it did exactly what it was meant to do, which was deliver Ilraen's thoughts and words directly, rather than just give us 'the same information'. It is not Neshomeh's fault you jumped in and did not realize he is an andalite. Different perspectives in writing give different results, whether between third and first, or even the character it is focused on; I am sorry you do not understand this.
I think you may have thought the samples were focussed on showcasing your agents' backstory, and tuned them to be information-heavy, when in fact the goal is to see how you write, rather than what you write particularly.
hS
The Agents Receive a Mission.
{RC} was usually fairly quiet. While it was true that the console tended to beep whenever the agents were relaxing, it would cease to become funny if it never gave them any downtime.
Agent Kelly Stone was playing a game of chess against the computer. As a child, she hadn’t been encouraged to develop her intelligence, but she still was fairly smart. However, even with the difficulty turned down to three, Kelly was still losing. She didn’t mind because she was still improving.
Agent {To Be Determined} was sewing a patch onto her new uniform. Unlike her first uniform shirt, which had started life as a man’s dress-shirt, this one used to be part of the Navy Working Uniform. Its camouflage pattern had faded before the shirt was dyed black.
[BEEEEEEEE~]
Kelly slammed her hand on the “accept” button and began reading. “It’s for Chappie. Oh, you might want to make a backup. ‘They run into the rooms and wore on their weapons.’”
{TBD} had managed to stab her finger with the needle when the console went off. She had quietly put her finger in her mouth, but now she took it out. “Noted. You said it was ‘Chappie, right? Is that a movie?” At Kelly’s nod, {TBD} brought out her tablet and began swiping at the screen. A few minutes later, she pulled a bonnet-style hairdryer out of her bed’s headboard and laid down with her head in it. She winced as the device glowed blue for a moment, then she said “Ready to go.”
Kelly was already ready because she insisted on preparing for the next mission as soon as she returned from one. Previous partners had accused her of being OCD, but she just knew that being extremely organized made life much easier in the long run.
Kelly double-checked their bag of supplies and grabbed some extra bleeperin for herself. She was almost jealous of how {TBD} could just use her device to blunt the memories of missions. Of course, using Dollhouse technology meant that {TBD} couldn’t take any bleep products and had to wait until the mission was over to get any relief.
They stepped through the portal and were immediately assaulted with a hailstorm of seeds.
The Agents
Basic info - Kelly Stone, Human, 29, female, Earth
Appearance - 5’6, dark hair, dark eyes, skinny
Personality - She’s guarded and aloof. She’s not too mean, but she usually doesn’t act nice unless it will get her an advantage. Though every once in a while she’ll soften and give clues that she actually cares about her partners a little. She reads trashy romance. She’s very picky and won’t eat food of questionable origin.
History -She originally came from a story where the MIB cartoon-verse intersects with the Ben 10 universe. She was working as an assistant / receptionist for an alien that was running a fake ghost-chasing business. She has an older sister, a niece, a nephew, and her sister’s husband. Kelly had them moved to the Muppet universe because it was safer.
When Kelly first came to the PPC, she had implants that made her immune to neuralysers. She had them removed within a few months because magic started making them give her migranes. The agents that recruited her neglected to tell anyone that they recruited her because the neuralyser failed to work on her.
Kelly is irreligious. She also told off Aslan at one point, so all of her Narnia missions are before that incident.
The department- I think rare fandoms is part of the Floaters division? She’s also an agent trainer, but it’s not on-paper official.
----------------------------------
Basic info - Injerd or Ingeborg, Narnian bear, female
Appearance - She pretty much looks like a grizzly bear with a harness.
Personality - She’s patient and pretty easy-going, though can go from fine to roaring rage in a heartbeat.
History - She was a bit character. She hasn’t grown much beyond that yet.
When using the disguise generator, she prefers to have a beard.
The department - She might go into APD for Narnia after she’s transferred away from Kelly.
-----------------------
Basic info - To Be Determined, female.
History - TBD will be recruited from a story I once saw mocked. If I can’t find it again, I’ll create an outline from what I remember and invent the rest. She was a bit character who was unceremoniously killed off-screen after criticizing the main character. Her one defining trait was that she was a bitch.
She stayed in FicPsych for several months without making progress on growing a good personality. She was about to be put out of her misery when FicPsych gained Dollhouse technology.
She has a murderous hatred of Sues. The rest of her personality will be determined once I’ve figured out how to build the perfect agent.
The Dollhouse technology can reprogram her personality at any time, but I want to keep it fairly consistent with exceptions for character growth. Even though it is ideal for instantly gaining skills Matrix-style, she prefers to limit herself to only gaining canon knowledge, similar to being a walking pocket fictionary. She can’t take bleep-products, but she can blunt any memories she wants to after the mission is over.
The department - Floaters / rare fandoms. Kelly will probably transfer out if I want to give TBD a new partner.