It seems like we can hardly go two weeks without some big conflagration like this, and every time it goes the same way. People are hurt, maybe someone gets thrown out, it gets abruptly dropped as if nothing ever happened and if people start talking about improving things in the community so it's less likely drama gets so out of hand, it's "No, let's keep everything the same just for the sake of everything being the same."

I agree that we do need to work together to make the PPC a good place and all that, my concern is we often don't.

I think you're being too hard on yourself there. There's no rule that says newbies have to stay out of the serious stuff, and in fact, your lack of previous involvement might have in many circumstances been a good thing, because you wouldn't have been coming into the discussion with some preconceived notions about various people. And from what I can tell in the logs, you weren't running around calling for bans or anything like that. You mostly confined yourself to summaries of what was being discussed and general proposals for reform.

That said, if you want to ban yourself (from the Discord or the PPC) for a while in penance, I can't possibly object. Your call.

I was not aware of most of the matters with Ixi save for the GlarnBoudin incident, and my refusal to help was due to the fact that I didn't want to risk my friendship with him elsewhere, plus my busy life meant I didn't know about it until relatively late into the incident. I'm sorry that I did not jump in sooner, and that I didn't do enough to help resolve the matter.

As for today, I could've avoided being involved with what little information I had, but I jumped in regardless because I had a lot of feelings on the matter that I felt I had to express. Venting is fine and all, but it does nothing without taking actions, and I should've been stronger with mine. More importantly, I should've stopped the doxxing at the source and called out the ones who were calling for it to be brought up immediately and publicly. July, I am so sorry that I didn't do more to put a stop to this matter, and also that I didn't nip it in the bud no matter how much effort I put into halting it as it was. I talked to the wrong person, I tried to solve the wrong issue. Had I known the true extent of what was happening I could've done both of these differently and made more of a difference in the aftermath of this matter. And for that, July, I am truly sorry.

Regarding bans, I agree that Tomash doesn't deserve a six-month ban, let alone a year-long ban, because he was genuinely trying to help and feels guilty over his actions. That doesn't change the fact that they were serious, but I think two months would be ideal so that he could take the time off and pull himself together. Nobody else deserves to be banned, though, because I've stated more than once that such actions solve nothing and drive people away from this community. Is that what we want people to see the first time they come across the Board?

Jay- Awesomeness Central, you're still relatively new, and getting a feel for the community; I think what happened was that you came in close to a very bad time and didn't know better. I don't blame you for feeling guilty - I've done some of the same things as you have in the past - but I can also say that outright leaving the community and its problems won't solve anything, and this is coming from someone who seriously thought at one point that if it weren't for his unfinished story plots, he'd actually consider it. I too am ashamed of what's happened, but that doesn't mean I can't learn from it, and the same goes to you. I hope you and everyone else can learn from their mistakes and that we can be better prepared for future incidents of this caliber should they arise (I personally pray that they don't but knowing the Internet, and human society, I don't think any promises can be made about it).

I must also state that both you and hS have valid points. Mods are indeed a good idea to keep people in line, but at the same time this is a community where everyone is expected to uphold the Constitution. Higher-ups aren't necessarily required for the latter, but we must also be careful about the former. To reference an Aesop fable, we don't want a King Log who can't effectively manage the pond, nor do we want a King Stork who abuses their power and picks on the frogs he lords over. In light of this, however, there's a bit of a dilemma in that we could be content with our lot and try to sort through the sheer amount of suggestions about how to better handle the community as a group, or we could try to find the most reasonable authority figures and operate based on at least a small degree of subjectivity. I don't know if there's any way we can resolve all of this that doesn't have at least some disadvantages, but at the very least, we should try to minimize potential problems when selecting mods, if we do, and the rest of us should still continue working to uphold the community standards going forward.

They've proven they're responsible, level-headed, and exactly the right amount of interfering. They also have the requisite amount of experience. I trust them.

I feel that Tomash's doxxing of July was outside the remit of the Constitution. If someone commits a potentially endangering act, we are under no obligation to let them say 'sorry, mistake, won't happen again'.

But that doesn't mean we can't say that. I have spoken with July, and she doesn't feel that it's necessary for Tomash to be banned. Therefore, I vote that Tomash not be banned.

Instead, I propose that he and everyone else involved consider this thread as an emphatic explanation under Article Seven that their behaviour was wrong. I think most of the people from the chat have admitted this by now anyway, and there are several apologies floating around.

Therefore, for everyone who is a first-time offender, they should be requested to make an apology, and commit themselves to not repeating their mistakes. Then they should be allowed to move on. That's what our Constitution allows for, and I happen to think that it's a very fair way to deal with people who have acted badly once.

hS

First, on Tomash: I've thought it over, I've talked it out, and I've come to the conclusion that permanently banning Tomash does not fix anything and would not make our community better. I believe he understands why and how what he did was wrong, has done all he can to undo the damage, and will make every effort to avoid the same mistakes in the future. In addition, he was in good standing prior to this. However, a serious infraction merits a serious response, so a temporary ban may still be in order. Perhaps three months.

Second, on everyone else named in PC's revision: an apology is certainly required, not just to July, but to Iximaz, too, for my money. It's absurd how you've allowed your feelings about her to twist you into knots, and it's unfair to make her responsible for that by continuing to excuse yourselves on the basis that you were worried about her. There are lots of better things you could have done with your feelings. No one needs the burden of their friends' reactivity stirring up unwanted trouble on their behalf—and she's said repeatedly that she does not want to be the cause of drama.

However, allow me to propose an alternative to mass banning that still actually penalizes the bad behavior: if possible, lock the Discord temporarily. No one is allowed in for three months, minimum. You abused the privilege of a live chatroom by letting things get out of hand in there, so you all can slum it in forum time with the rest of us for a while. Then, when you go back, perhaps you'll appreciate it and respect it more.

I know some of you will protest that you weren't involved in this fracas, so you shouldn't lose the privilege. Maybe that's true, but on the other hand, maybe a temporary personal sacrifice is a small price to pay for justice and a healthier Discord in the future. Think about it before you object.

~Neshomeh

This thread has gotten so wild I genuinely don't know where else to lay out my thoughts.


So, first thought, Tomash. I don't think he needs to be permabanned. Doxxing someone is absolutely a serious offense, but it's also (so far as I know) his first in about six years of spotless membership. He has acknowledged it was wrong, apologized repeatedly and profusely for it, and resolved to make amends in whatever way he can. In addition to which, his offense was, or at least seemed to me, a mistake made in dire circumstances with the genuine intention of providing people ait all facts available, rather than a malicious attack or deliberate violation of the rules or common decency. That, to me, is not a situation that merits a permaban.

Some form of consequence is necessary, certainly, but permabans are not the tool for this job. I strongly believe that they should be reserved for cases where there is a repeated or drastic negative consequence to someone's continued presence. I do not see that as the case with Tomash, or anyone else involved in this matter. If people want to discuss a temp ban, I'll leave them to it. I still don't think it's the best course, and I'll vote as such, but I'm only one member.

Now as to the secondary ban proposals, I strongly oppose banning any of the people mentioned in PC and Des' lists, for any length of time. Witchhunting members of the community is very much Not Cool, but neither is mass banning members on first offenses without first giving due consideration to less drastic courses. Even temporary bans are significant, especially in the case of Khryssty, who's only been here about a month, if I recall correctly.

I would also like to voice my concern over the frequency of bans being suggested. Many of the candidates suggested have never had problems before, and are now being considered for bans as long as twelve months, without, as far as I have seen, even any significant effort being made to so much as talk to them about it. This deeply troubles me. I know we want to make it clear that witchhunting/bullying and such things are not tolerated here, but I worry that if we start looking at problems as "does this merit a ban?" rather than "what can we do to resolve this?" we won't look as hard for more constructive solutions. When all you have is a hammer, and all that. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid, but I would be much reassured if we resolved to at the bare minimum tackle each case individually. This name listing in ban proposals does not sit well with me.


All that aside, though, there is something I would like us all to keep in mind as this discussion goes on, particularly in light of the controversial tone it may take; we all try to be friends (or at least pleasant acquaintances) here. We don't always succeed, but that's the goal, so while this is a crisis, try to remember that we're all doing what we think is best for the community and for each other.

In that same vein, I would like to thank everyone who has posted so far for participating in this discussion. This is rough stuff, easy to want to shy away from, particularly if you're not personally involved. It's gratifying to see everyone weighing in.
I especially want to thank Neshomeh, Seafarer, and Storme Hawk for taking the time to so thoroughly and articulately lay out their thoughts on this. I won't deny I was more than a little fired up when I first started going through this thread, but seeing their comments helped me remember to check my temper before posting.

Finally, if we do end up calling for a vote—something I would very much prefer to avoid, for the record—I vote no action taken.

-Badger

P.S.
I apologize for the no doubt error-ridden state of this post. It's taken the better part of the day to catch up on all this and to organize my thoughts on it. Fatigue is not kind to my mental spellchecker.

Firstly, the difference between your and Matt's conduct.

Matt's harassment of July caused no irrevocable damage. When he saw the error of his ways, he was able to make amends for the totality of his actions - there was no risk of permanent physical or mental harm to July.

You, on the other hand, posted private information about her in a public place. This potentially placed her at risk of actual, physical harm. This difference, I think, justifies calling for your ban while allowing Matt to remain.

However, I believe that the people calling for you to be permanently banned are taking things too far. You have been an upstanding member of the community in every post of yours that I've seen, and I see no reason for you to be thrown under the bus for a first offence.

Furthermore, upon having the implications of your behaviour pointed out to you, you immediately recognised that you had done wrong and did everything in your power to make amends for it. By the Constitution, you should be given a second chance, which I think some people here have overlooked.

Because of the severity of what you did, though, I feel your second chance has to come after a period of banning from the PPC as a whole. There is a risk - however small - that your actions may lead/have led to JulyFlame suffering severe harm.

I hope that this sufficiently explains my perspective on your situation (and hopefully some of the people calling for permanent bans read this and come to their senses).

(I'm not sure whether voting is meant to go here, but I'll say it just in case: I vote for a six month ban of Tomash. I also call upon everyone involved in the Discord debacle to apologise to anyone hurt by their conduct.)

A six month ban for Tomash and resignation of Discord modship. No ban for anyone else.

Mainly because you can't dictate that people know how to handle themselves and others when someone is in crisis. "Behave like someone who's been taught to manage this incredibly difficult situation, OR ELSE!" Come on, if you want to be serious, be serious.

Also because, no matter how many times you rewrite the rules, it still falls to each individual to understand and uphold them. If people don't understand that the Constitution calls for decency, respect, and socially responsible conduct now, they won't after yet another re-write, either.

Also because we just did a re-write to address the subject of bullying and harassment and to streamline the articles. Not enough people pitched in to ratify it. Some claimed they didn't feel qualified to comment; most didn't say anything at all. The discussion was put aside for later on the grounds that the few people who were involved were burned out. If you were around then and could have stepped up but chose not to, you have no right to complain now.

~Neshomeh

First: I am sorry that I didn't say anything during the incident at all. Not when the screenshot went up, not when the witch-hunt was starting before then, and not even the moment I noticed Iximaz had left.

There is no excuse for my lack of a response to each and every one of these.

I am sorry I didn't immediately respond to the doxxing.

I am sorry I didn't say anything during the extended witch-hunt. At the time, I thought I was trying to gather information and context about the situation while (obviously) worrying about Iximaz; in retrospect, my being passive was a terrible choice to make.

Finally, to Iximaz: I am sorry for not recognizing harassment by Glarn. I am sorry for not recognizing any moves you've made in the past to try and bring bullying here to light and to discuss and act on it in a timely manner. I am sorry for not learning about what harassment looks like online or how people react to being bullied. I intend to fix that as soon as possible.

Look, permanently banning someone is not gonna do the trick. And let me say that many, many, people who serve in the military have their faces and names revealed. That is all.

Perfectly happy to oblige. Thanks for the invitation.

1) I more than agree that Tomash was in the wrong for sharing that information. I more than agree that he ought to be punished. But not only has he already explained why he did the things he did and where he was coming from, he has deleted every copy he had of what was shared (last I heard, the only copy left around was in Ix's possession, but that might be outdated news now). I have also gathered that this was his first time doing things like this. A perma-ban? I don't think that's right. Several months - let's say six to be on the generous side - should be a sufficient show of not-letting-you-in.

2) A year's ban for that? No. That's still too much. I'm not going to say they should go unpunished - they were undeniably exacerbating the situation, from what I've gathered - but a year is way too long. It's long enough that there would almost be no point in coming back after the sentence was done. Two or three months is still more than I'd really like to give, but I'm trying to be impartial here.

3) I really don't have too many problems with Ekyl's period - but that's because he has admitted that he doesn't want an end to this mess. So I'm being a little less objective than I could be on that front.
But for Aegis? Heck no. In my opinion, he doesn't need a ban at all - he was worried for his not-yet-engaged-to-person. But if he were banned at all, a week or two would be fine.

4) An apology is fine.

I mentioned that we should, in fact, censor the information to protect July's privacy. I also specifically requested July's contact information so that I could get in touch with her obtain both her side of the story and her consent in posting the screenshot (and even that only in the event it became relevant). I wasn't even going to post it if she didn't give me permission.

I wasn't advocating plastering July's name and face all over the Board. I wasn't advocating anything but looking further into this mess by getting July's side of the story. I'm no longer advocating even that, as it's obvious to me, as explained by Neshomeh and Kaitlyn, that doing so would further no one's ends.

I wanted her opinion on all of this. The punishment for that, I'll happily accept.

My own, if voted up, I will accept without objection. Heck, if I get a vote in this, I vote for my own. I'm not exactly a constructive influence at the best of times, and, regardless of what I think of any individual person, I can't say what I think of the community as a whole.

For the others, however, I think you're going too far. Tomash, particularly, does not deserve a permanent ban for a single mistake. To be clear, this is in light of the fact that, as far as I know, every copy of the screenshot in question has been deleted. Let us say that the screenshot was available for forty-eight hours, even though I believe it was likely more of a twenty-four hour matter. Assuming that we at least suppose PPC members are not secretly assassins for the Kremlin, that means there is a forty-eight hour window in which a hostile entity could have accessed the Board or Discord and found July's identity. For this small, accidental window created with the sole intention of bringing context to the general Discord, you propose a permanent removal. Whether there should be a temporary ban, I'll let others work out.

On the others? Firstly, a year-long ban effectively is a permanent ban. Expecting most people to come back after a year of absence is ridiculous. Such a period of exile for essentially seeing some kind of problem and wanting to move against it while acknowledging that in order to do so, they would have to take it to the Board, which I would like to remind you, they did, and I would also note that if they hadn't done so, it's very possible you wouldn't even know this had happened. For Aegis and Ekyl? Also ridiculous. We are talking about removing them for a third of a year for, essentially, continuing to present opinions about a future course of action. That's great. Truly.

An apology, I think, is in order from everybody, regardless of who is banned for how long, except perhaps Desdendelle, who argued against our actions and couldn't do much to actually stop us because he can't, say, forcibly prevent us from posting on the Board. I make one here.

JulyFlame, I would like to apologize for my actions and thoughts on you. I assumed the worst, without first knowing your side of the story, and because of that, I did not object when your personal information was revealed, and pushed to move the matter into an official inquiry without taking the time to examine why I did so. For this, I am sorry.

And now, two last notes. The first is on the nature of bans and temporary bans themselves. A ban is supposed to be the removal of an person who, to quote a friend, ".. is a repeat offender, is consistently not accepting of responsibility or punishments, and is unable to fit in with the community whatsoever." It is only to be used when somebody has proven that they cannot, beyond a shadow of a doubt, repent and reform into a constructive member of the community. A temporary ban is a moral punishment in which one person violates previously existing rules, and is intended to serve as a punishment, not as a way to drive them away from the community without initiating a full ban.

The second note is something that I believe everybody looking at this message knows, but I will say it anyways, because somebody must. Most, if not all, people looking at this thread say that Desdendelle's idea cannot be implemented, and so you have devised this new version, targeting specific people in order to attempt to sway others who would be opposed to this under most circumstances, to vote for lesser punishments in order to avoid ones of the severity you have proposed. I intend to pass no judgement here, I simply want to spell out what I think is on everybody's minds, that it may be acknowledged, perhaps argued against, and eventually moved past without turning into a festering sore in the minds of some.

This is all I have to say on the matter.

How people started going "We should change our Board policy so that the Iximaz situation will never happen again", and then promptly turn around and call people who defended them bullies and call for their bans.

For the record, we have confirmed abusers in the PPC community. As an example, palindromordnilap is a repeat offender who has harassed, threatened to doxx, and suicide baited and sent death threats to people.

Why shouldn't we ban those instead?

Not everyone who said anything in the disaster wanted to go through with the Board doxxing. I know didn't. I've said multiple times that I told Aegis via PM not to go through with posting the info on the Board unless it was really needed, with consent, and with all personal information obscured for safety. I had not, to my knowledge, seen any instance of the information in the screencap being called for. I knew it wasn't a good idea to have anything to do with that screenshot; what I didn't know at the time is that the Discord channel is as public as the Board because not only could people who have access pop in and see the screenshot simply by scrolling to the conversation date, but the invite is publicly distributed so that, well, anyone else could. I've stated several times that I cannot apologize enough for not taking action against Tomash, and for doing absolutely nothing about the screencap being put on the Discord in the first place, as hS noted. I'm a busy, busy person, I was working on proofreading multiple academic papers at the time, and my dad was sitting right behind me while all this was happening, so if he so much as glanced in my direction I could be in serious trouble. Hence my relative lack of activity compared to certain other members. I've realized since then that I should've just taken the risk and spoken up against the Discord doxxing in the first place. Hindsight is 20/20, I guess.

With that being said, I have already apologized to the Board at large for not acting when I should have - and for that matter, not directing the actions I did take at the source of the issue - and I am willing to extend my apologies to JulyFlame specifically for the same reason. So, I imagine, would everyone else you've listed who have to do the same thing.

What I am not convinced about, however, is the notion that outright banning a number of people for taking part in a single huge offense is the best choice, especially after they've admitted, repeatedly, that they feel genuinely guilty about their actions. Tomash has stepped down as a chat mod and apologized multiple times to the entire Board for this incident. Granz and Alleb have also stated that they feel awful and that they won't repeat anything even close to this. I believe their words and accept their apologies, but at the same time I do feel that just a simple warning might not be enough. Banning them from the entire PPC community, though, is probably going to do more harm than good, even if said ban is temporary. Even if it was for good reason, I believe it would send the wrong message to those who've just found us and taken a first glance at what's been going on. Permabanning Tomash, who has been apologetic about the doxxing ever since it was first pointed out, could give the impression that you're not willing to listen to his feelings and give him a second chance. The closest I can think of to a metaphorical slap on the wrist would probably be to temporarily kick him and the others who started and/or exacerbated this incident from the Discord, for the amount of time you've proposed for each of them, but still allow them to participate in the PPC community as a whole, thereby at least giving them a chance to learn from their collective mistake. I don't know what other people would think of this, but it's probably the best approach I can think of to penalizing the kickstarting of what was plainly a witch hunt (even if I didn't realize that it was at the time). I repeatedly stated that there was nothing any of us could do to make things better, and I should've added that rampaging after someone else as though they were some sort of scapegoat would ultimately result in a complete and total cataclysm for everyone concerned. I can personally attest to that, having been subject to a witch hunt at least once in the past, and I can say with confidence that we as a community can and should do better than to start anything even close to one.

Be that as it may, I've stated this before in the Discord chat, and I'll state it again here: I am very, very disappointed in and ashamed of this entire clusterflock and the current state of the community in light of it. I joined the PPC in the hopes that it'd be more welcoming than any previous online community I'd known, but my faith in it has been repeatedly shaken, though not yet broken, by things like this happening more than once. In the aftermath of this fiasco, a very small part of me wants to say that if it weren't for my PPC writing responsibilities and the fact that I've made a number of good friends here that I can only contact via the PPC, I'd have walked out on everyone else here without a second thought. It's only a very small part, though, and I know ragequitting would not be helpful to anyone when I , and everyone else, should be striving to make this community a better place for anyone who visits it. (I'm also going to take this moment to say that I'm not even close to interested in being a mod for the Discord channel, having read your earlier opposition to electing anyone who was involved in this mess to that position. I've been through multiple occasions that have demonstrated that I'd make a horrible admin, plus I don't have even half the time to manage the Discord chat when I have so many other things to do as it is.)

Still, we as a community are better than this. We should be, and I hope we can be in the future. As it stands, though, there's still a long way to go before we can repair the damage that's been done to our collective spirit over the past few months, especially the past few days. And honestly, I think it's probably for the better that I distance myself from this whole conversation until my input or intervention is needed. The longer I read this entire mess, the worse I feel.

I mean, he's the one who threatened to go all Stalin on every single person who was even present for the discussion, and I don't think his comments in the chatlog are those of someone who was doing "nothing to stop it".

Was I critical of July? Yes, very. But I was also on record as opposing the witch hunt and wanting the matter dropped, or at the very least put off for later.

On the principle of making a public apology... I accept the idea of doing one for not doing more than one or two statements to Aegis to calm down during this mess, although I'll also tell that I couldn't really do more at the moment, given the fact that despite what my indicator could say, my access to Discord during the week is at the very best sporadic. I didn't have a real opportunity to tell more, I'm working during the week, and that lets me very little time for the PPC, especially when most of the dscussion are during American time.

But... Desdendelle, seriously? He pretty much told how much of a bad idea it was during the entire moment of the discussion he was present, stressing at every turn how wrong it was. How exactly does that account for doing nothing?

Besides... Well, I said my access to the chat was sporadic, but what about other people being automatically connected to Discod because they dowloaded the app but aren't actually following the discussion, or cannot? If they couldn't do something, punishing them for that doesn't seem to be really fair.

As for the apology, I'm ready to make a dedicated post when you see fit.

Moderators are not the solution. The solution is for every person in this community to do what we've said all along that they should be doing:

10. The PPC as a community is responsible for upholding the Constitution. If following Article 7 doesn't resolve a situation, any and all uninvolved community members have a responsibility to back up the person who is in the right, or to defuse an unclear situation. It is never wrong to ask a third party to comment on a dispute, but try to find someone uninvolved; a mediator will be more useful for resolving a dispute than a supporter.

When Iximaz and July had their argument, I talked to both of them, and helped July with her apology. When July and Matt Cipher had their argument, I talked to both of them and helped Matt with his apology. When Iximaz and GlarnBoudin had their argument, I looked at what was said and offered an opinion - and when my view was challenged, I reconsidered it and posted that I had. When Desdendelle shamed Iximaz, I spoke up. When I heard July had been doxxed, I got hold of the chat logs and spoke up.

I do not stand by. I do not let things happen. You may disagree with the conclusions I draw, the actions I suggest, the blame I lay or withhold, but you can never point at me and say I just ignore problems. If everybody in this community can do the same, this will never happen again.

And I want desperately for that to happen. This place, this Board and this PPC, is something precious, something unique. It's a place where we don't look to authority to keep us in check, but where we take responsibility for our own actions, and where we stand up for our friends when they are attacked. It's a place where we want to know the facts before we form our opinions - and when new information comes to light or our views are challenged, we don't lash out, but reconsider and reevaluate.

That's what I believe. That's the PPC I have stood for, for nearly fifteen years now. That's the community I trust every one of you to stand up for.

I want to give a huge shout-out to ninny4370 here. They are literally the newest person here, but they have stood up and called out the problem they see, and what they think we should do about it. I may not agree with what they suggest, but I am immensely impressed that they are saying it.

hS

Everyone right now is very tense due to this. I would recommend waiting a few days before implementing those actions.

To be it seems a bit too extreme, and if two people really don't want anything to do with each other they'll just refuse to interact on their own accord.

Let me run you over some of the logs you've clearly ignored in your blind rage of getting all of those people banned.



Akrinor-Yesterday at 12:11 PM
Actually, in a way it is part of exactly the can of worms we're about to open. But I agree with not putting the convo on board.

palindromordnilap-Yesterday at 11:32 AM
You should probably censor July's name and face.

Ekyl-Yesterday at 12:11 PM
If July wanted her real name known on the board, she would go by it.

Granz-Yesterday at 12:11 PM
We could quote the conversation.
Instead of using the screenshot.

Matt Cipher-Yesterday at 12:12 PM
I agree that showing face and real name is not cool and disrespectful. (...)

SkarmorySilver-Yesterday at 12:10 PM
And IMHO, putting that chat screencap in public view would be extremely disrespectful to all parties involved, which won't help anybody's case.

The only time you see Silenthunder joining that specific convo is when she says she agrees that the whole policy should be changed. Not even once does she say anything about JulyFlame or the screenshot.


But I guess it's easier to say all of them are guilty. Whatever. If you feel better about yourself, go ahead. Do your worst and ban me.

I was barely present during this discussion, mainly because I found it disturbing, and my only interventions wer about calming down and thinking hard before doing something really harsh.

Not that I expected anyone to take that seriously, but if this isn't the Board on fire, I don't know what is.

Look. I agree that Tomash must go up for a ban. I say this with deep regret, because I have always liked and respected Tomash up til now, I'd miss him, and I recognize that losing him likely means losing T-Board as well, but if anyone with a lesser reputation had done this thing, and if the victim had been anyone less controversial than July, it would not even be a question; it would be done. It cannot be overstated that this indiscretion is potentially life-threatening to July, who is active in the military, which does have enemies. The rules for her are not the same as for someone who is a private citizen. This is no mere hypothetical situation; this is not just "Internet drama." This is f**king serious, and if I could swear properly, I would, so that you would know I mean it.

The rest, though? I don't know. My gut instinct says it's overkill, but I haven't had time to go through the logs, because sometimes I have to work during the day and keeping up with the Board has been hard enough.

Don't get me wrong, I am extremely disappointed in a lot of you, and I find myself distrusting live chatrooms again, seeing as this is the second time I've seen one apparently become an echo chamber where a subsection of the community worked itself into a frenzied mob bent on persecuting one certain member on dubious charges.

I find it somewhat ironic that people in this thread were crying for more aggressive censure of wrongdoers, and then the minute Des tests that resolve to its natural extent, he gets such fierce backlash.

I'll try to get properly caught up tomorrow. Just... for f**k's sake, you guys, this is beyond stupid. I know you know that, I just need to say it for me.

~Neshomeh

Looking back at all of this, I have to agree with both sides of the argument here. Yes, doxxing is horrible and does not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as any PPC boarder. Heck, it does not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as anybody's Internet usernames anywhere, period. It's put lives at risk in the past, and a quick look at the article about it on Wikipedia has confirmed that it's actually led to the deaths of almost a dozen people since the 1990's. On a more personal level, when I got involved in drama a few years ago, I started worrying, albeit irrationally, that I'd be doxxed by at least a few of the others involved and suffer physical harm, or worse. I would never consider doxxing anyone I've fallen out with online, ever.

That being said, outright banning everyone involved in the entire discussion, even those who weren't there to see the screencap fiasco, will solve absolutely nothing and, I fear, may continue putting us in a negative light. Sure, I did chime in a few times when said screencap happened, but I only realized the gravity of what was going down at the time long after the fact. While I did drop out of the conversation due to being busy with personal matters, I PM'd Aegis later on and told him that I was firmly on your side, that this information should not be released publicly, and that doing so would come back to hurt everyone involved and couldn't be retracted. In hindsight I realize that a better course of action would have been to talk to Tomash directly and to tell him to delete the screencap from the Discord chat as well as his computer files if applicable (which is most likely the case). I apologize for not doing so immediately and also for not making a public attempt to decry the screencap incident while it was happening. My awful time management skills do not excuse the fact that I did nothing to stop this and if I have to deal with the consequences of my nonaction then I'm willing to accept them.

With that being said, however, outright banning every single participant in the whole conversation, including yourself, seems like an act of haste, and likely anger over the whole incident, as justified as it was. I don't know if the ban is from the Discord chat or from the PPC in its entirety, but shutting people out of this community just because they either were led by herd mentality to make a collective mistake will send a very bad message to anyone who happens upon the Board or other PPC-affiliated places online and thinks that we drop the banhammer willy-nilly for committing just one perceived offense.

I don't disagree that what Tomash did was unimaginably wrong, and I don't disagree that ganging up on July was just as bad. But making propositions out of sheer anger is likely to do more harm than good, especially in circumstances as dubious as this. I hope we can all learn from this, end this vicious cycle, and find a better way to handle drama, bullying, and general grossness, but I personally think insta-banning half the currently active PPC community because of one disastrous conversation is anything but that way.

I thought someone with authority here might step in and just say this was ridiculous, so since no one has, I shall voice my entirely un-authoritative opinion on the matter, which I do believe I made clear below.

This is ridiculous.

I won't speak on my own ban, because I think I made it clear enough (flippantly, but I don't think I was in the wrong) to talk about Tomash.

Yes, he made a mistake. No one here is denying that. But I also think taking away his position as a moderator is punishment enough. This is considering he posted a screenshot he shouldn't have posted in the heat of the moment when he assumed his friend was dead is not an action that calls for a ban.

Namely, because I don't see bans in this instance as a method for punishing people, but ways to eliminate nuisances from the PPC as a whole. I think that, on balance, Tomash's presence is a constructive one.

In summary I think that stripping him of modship is punishment enough, because what I see isn't indicative of a malicious presence in the PPC.

Here's what I did wrong:

I participated in what has been deemed a witch-hunt. I helped direct the witch-hunt (see VM's post). This was wrong.

I didn't stand up, didn't speak, when July was doxxed. This was wrong.

I didn't try to calm tempers; I inflamed them, and was inflamed myself. This was wrong.

I have a few words in my defense, but they don't absolve me. Namely, I've chatted with July before, and I've seen the info in the screenshot before. Thus, when I saw the screenshot, I didn't think, "July has been doxxed." Doesn't excuse me--heck, it's more evidence that I wasn't thinking things through--but for me, at least, it wasn't new info. "I didn't really think about it" isn't exactly an excuse, though.

I was also worried about Ixi at the time, but that's no excuse, either. In fact, this worry should have made me more sensitive to others being wronged. But it didn't. I was an idiot.

Listen. I love this community. I spend a lot of my time here; I have a lot of friends here. I don't want to be banned. But what I did was wrong. I don't think July deserves this. July certainly didn't deserve to have any info posted--that goes without saying. We should all step back and calm down.

So... yeah. I've got to say, I don't think I deserve a ban. I was wrong, I did wrong, but I didn't have malicious intent. I thought that there were grievances to be addressed. So I'm going to ask that I not be banned--but that decision lies entirely with the community.

I'm going to step back for a few days. I'll be available for PM and Hangouts, but I won't be on the Board or in the main Discord chat. I'll let you all come to an agreement.

One last thing. Um, I know most of you aren't Christians, but Proverbs 15 sort of slapped me in the face. It's what I should have been doing this whole time, but didn't. It's worth a read.

-Alleb

Well, firstly, Tomash. I cannot myself make a judgement on whether what he did was illegal or not, but it was, in my opinion, a bad idea at the very least, and immoral and malicious at the very worst, although I do not think it goes that far. As he has resigned, I say ban him for a period no shorter than two weeks, but no longer than two months. This will give him long enough to think on his actions without being overly harsh.

As to myself, if I am banned, I will make no argument against it. I do not particularly wish to be, but seeing as yesterday, I made decisions out of fear and anger and, even if I did think revealing July's name and face were going too far, I did not speak out against it at the time. I do not know if I can be trusted without some form of punishment.

However, as to everybody else, I know some were not on for the entire thing. Aegis, especially, I believe was mostly there to notify us that Ix was alive. Furthermore, those who were there for the majority of the discussion were attempting to steer it into an actual discussion, not a witch-hunt, and several advocated at least taking this to the Board. And here is when I make a point about mass bans. The thing about Discord is, it's ridiculously easy to make a server. I made one in about a minute. Should we decide to invoke a mass ban, it would take me about ten to send off invites to everybody who has been banned, essentially splitting the PPC in two. I might not even use the dang thing, but my point is, you wouldn't really be punishing anybody, especially given that all it takes is a third person to put two people back in contact, creating an underground network that means that nobody is banned, ever. Such things only work when you have one or two toxic people who the group collectively agrees to remove from themselves and not speak to. Attempting this method would undermine the implementation of such systems in the future.

I have made an extremely glaring oversight and serious mistake in posting that screenshot. I again deeply apologize for what I have done.

In the discussion about that, it has become clear that the PPC does not trust my judgment or my ability to hold power because of my rash action yesterday. I would only like to say that I do not believe that my extremely unacceptable actions to be illegal.

This, however, leaves us with a lack of moderators that are active during the evenings in the United States (since Iximaz has also resigned and Cat-on-the-Keyboard is not very active). Would someone be so kind as to nominate my replacement?

So you propose to ban basically everyone in that conversation.
Firstly, as Tomash said, most of us did not know wether Ix had taken their own life, so I think it's viable to say that we all might just have been a little bit tense at that time, as well as on the verge of panicking.
Secondly, a big part of the later conversation was sparked by Aegis asking you to contact JulyFlame, since you had her contact info and asking for her consent on posting the conversation on the board. All the time while you were accusing us of not even trying to get her side of the story, when it was quite clearly part of what we were trying to do.
Lastly, even if you were justified in your calls for bans, if I recall correctly, in most cases the Constitution actually doesn't allow bans for "first offenders", which, if I am not mistaken, would constitute most of those you called out, barring actual illegal activity, which, except in Tomash's case, did not apply. I think the exact phrase used was "Everyone deserves a second chance.".

~Ak

P.S. I do agree that what Tomash did was wrong, and that he at the very least should lay down his duties as a mod,; however I do understand why he did it.

I actually see Des' point here.

What was going in that discussion was disgusting. And no, I am not going to accept the "we didn't know if Iximaz was even alive" thing - they continued well after the reveal that Ix was alright.

And what I saw made me so scared I failed to take action. I didn't stop the nastyness against July. I did only a pathetic attempt at rebuking the accusations against Huinesoron (which I'm afraid it was read as me willing to bop hS if he were to pass the thing as nothing, when I meant that if hS were to be like that I would be disappointed because that simply wouldn't have been the hS I know). I failed to help Desdendelle try to get people to reason.

I was afraid I would just become the next target, as I could be easily passed off as one of the "July-covering oldbies"

So I believe some kind of action is needed. I don't believe we should decide what right now, and of course we should look into actual individual responsibilites and not simply bring down the ban-hammer with the same setting on everyone - a couple days for cooling down before taking a decision, as ninny suggested, might be the best thing to do now.

But the sheer amount of hate I saw in that chat should not be treated lighly, and should not be let pass.

To all of those except Tomash.

I read the logs. I know that what Tomash did was awful. But I say no to guilt by association.

Here's what I say: strip Tomash of mod powers. Ban him for at least six months. Actions like his which are not only immoral but actually illegal have to be punished, or there is no justice in the community.

(Actually, I might be convinced of a lesser ban for anyone implying that July deserved it for her actions - innocent until proven guilty and punishment must fit the crime and all that. But I only saw one or two people even getting close to that.)

And with that... we need to let this go. July's not here to defend herself, so any investigation into her actions cannot continue. Right now, we need to work out how to deal with this sort of thing in future and then set it in stone, in the rules.

In fact, let's ban everyone. Dissolve the PPC. That takes care of the problem.

While I definitely think that Tomash should be knocked a good month into the future w/ the Ol' Ban Hammer for that little leak, banning that many people feels like it might be a tad overkill.

I believe the aforementioned Tomash said it best: "Please keep in mind that during most of the beginning of that log, the people talking were unsure whether Iximaz was alive and therefore under a lot of emotional stress."

I do think I understand, but again, my biases prevent my saying anything. Wouldn't want to be banned, after all. My hands are tied, really.

Banning people, including yourself is not the answer! Even though I may be a newbie, this cannot pass. This is not the right thing to do, banning them because they were in the DISCUSSION is going to far.

Maybe don't go full bloodthirsty, eh? I was on your side of the disgussion.

I've been trying to stay out of this since I think it's a community issue and not a personal one, but I really can't anymore.

Yes, Tomash posted a screenshot he really shouldn't have. I've discussed this with him, and he's genuinely regretful for doing so without the consent of both parties, which, if you'll examine the logs, I believe you'll find we later discussed thoroughly.

I can't speak for the Discord, but I believe I'm not alone in that when I saw the post in the Discord, I believed that the damage had been done, and felt it would be buried quickly enough in the chat that anyone joining wouldn't see it unless we kept talking about it like it was there. I should've asked Tomash to delete the screenshot to mitigate the damage done to July's privacy, but I didn't. I admit I made a mistake there, and one I hope not to make again.

That said, I don't believe what happened here was a witch hunt. A few people got overzealous (names don't occur to me) but emotions were running high and not everyone can keep their head when things get that way.

What I was asking for was contact information so that I could privately speak with July, and ask to see if she would consent to that screenshot being posted. This was to be done with private information redacted, in the event that the community as a whole discussed exactly what bullying constituted, given that "harassment" can be difficult to define.

Here's 84 pages of discussion, minus one screenshot.

Please keep in mind that during most of the beginning of that log, the people talking were unsure whether Iximaz was alive and therefore under a lot of emotional stress.

Hi guys! I've seen your chat logs now.

Who wants to help me count the ways this is a horrifying post? Let's start!

1/ Tomash posted a private conversation between two people who were not him, without permission from either of them.

2/ Tomash posted about me, discussing my actions in a place where I have made it very clear I will not go. Talking about people behind their backs is explicitly called out in the PPC Constitution.

3/ Tomash misstated, if not flat-out lied about, my reaction. Here's the entire conversation concerning that picture; I received a reply from Iximaz which I have not shown, but never an answer from Tomash.

4/ Tomash chose to post July's full name and face in a public place, where there is a permanent record, without her knowledge or consent.

I'm looking desperately for anyone objecting to this. I've found one "I'm not sure about posting the image", one "you should probably censor July's name and face" (note: future tense, not past"... and one "If July really has been verbally abusive, why protect her?"

Tell me how this is acceptable behaviour. Tell me why it's okay for a moderator to publically post someone's real identity in the course of resolving an argument. Tell me why you - and I make it at least a dozen of you who were there - are perfectly fine with something that can be linked to July's real name, home, family, job, everything... being publically splashed across the internet in front of people who are busy saying how abusive she is.

Tell me. I'm listening.

hS

July is a human being whom I happen to trust and respect a great deal, despite, I feel it relevant to note, having personally fallen out with her in the past. She's not perfect, but none of us are. We all have our issues, and none of us deserves to be treated as an acceptable target whenever something goes wrong. She has feelings, too, and it is not acceptable to tread on them with impunity.

I can't let this go unsaid: Iximaz is a wonderful person whose presence we value, and they do deserve to be taken seriously. However, we cannot properly do that without also bearing in mind that their mental illness, and sometimes side-effects of the treatment for it, means that they are not always 100% rational. Let us strive not to fall into the trap that turns understanding and accepting into enabling. This is as much for their sake as for ours as a community. It doesn't help anyone to encourage them to persist in destructive behaviors (internally or externally directed), and we can't be bending over backwards and changing the very structure of our community every time something goes wrong with someone's meds. This is a pattern at this point, and I would rather not see it play out again if we can avoid it.

Just to be clear, I don't mean this as a criticism of Iximaz. I state that they have a mental illness not as a slur, merely as a fact. I mean only to encourage a deeper understanding of their issues and more responsible behavior toward them on the community's part.

~Neshomeh

First of all, getting rid of the permanent invite is jumping at shadows. At no point did we have a problem with someone abusing it to return to the channel after being kicked. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Second, are you ready to accept responsibility for kicking someone unjustly? Are you ready to face the consequences of that, whatever they may be?
Third, I don't get how we (or rather, you guys who were around for that) could've stopped what happened two days ago. If you could go back in time, you'd go and kick Ix from the channel at the middle of her shouting? Would that solve anything?

I particularly agree with the bit about the eternal invite. It did strike me that certain members could have just gone to the wiki page and thrown themselves back over and over again, and if there's account-banning, then they'd just make new accounts in order to harass people.

I would consider getting rid of the Discord Chat altogether. I think just about every recent issue over the past two-three months have all started there. I think it might be something about the lack of time to consider before posting. On the board it does take longer, and that might be a fix. It gives a chance for cooler heads to prevail.

Let's not assume that a) those people are bullies (because that merits looking into and "guilty until proven otherwise" is a bad principle to go on) and b) that we've somehow failed in stopping them (because that depends on them actually being bullies).

It makes sense to me to take the burden of collecting evidence off the victim, and it seems like a natural direction for Discord at least -- we already have a mod channel where we log warnings given (mostly for language, etc.). It will also lend credibility to the victim: having accusations presented by a neutral third party would reduce the temptation to excuse the perpetrator's behavior.

In Discord, private messaging is simple, and I'm in favor of mods providing their emails (mine's clickable on this post).

I also propose that moderators be made to run for re-election fairly regularly, so that they have to do a good job if they want to keep the position. We'd need an impeachment process, too.

Having mod powers contingent upon re-election would also make me feel better about the idea of having the mods decide on bans -- which would definitely streamline a process which could use some streamlining.

. . .what this adds up to seems to be changing the PPC from a direct democracy to a representative democracy. I. . . I think I'm okay with that idea.

--Key

If not, this might be a case of the current board not being ideal for our needs.

Who are those other two people who named July a bully, and who are the people who got driven out of the PPC because of her.

Tentatively because, frankly, an article isn't going to actually make people do anything. We can't just write some text saying "do this" on the Constitution, we have to convince people to actually act on it.