Subject: Oops. Shameface.
Author:
Posted on: 2012-10-04 20:11:00 UTC
I'm still somewhat torn on this one, but thank you for your words of wisdom distilled from the extended whatever. See you around. ;)
hS
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New collaboration mission! by
on 2012-10-03 16:35:00 UTC
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In which Sergio, Nikki, Corolla, Ari and Tera tackle a really annoying Overachiever!Sue who messed up with Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, Cardcaptor Sakura and Sailor Senshi.
And managed to drag in characters from NCIS and Fairy Tail too.
Snarking, implausible clothing and planet-shattering kabooms included for free!
Part 1
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1O1PQjhxUPRRIIx3RxuPht5IRuUMNTCHFCdBYPYxtaq0
Part 2
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1GvyWeEaDxz8P9xEP0a6WyQY9qejBMhbrz6LlzfEoKdg
(Alternate Wings Of Canon blog links will be avaible soon for those who can't stand Gdocs even in published status)
The two recruited Sailor Senshi replacements are up for grabs, as both of us have enough Agents already. -
Belated concrit! by
on 2012-10-08 01:45:00 UTC
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Sorry 'bout that.
I really like this mission! You two did a good job at describing the progressively weirder costumes equipped by the Sue. There were enough explanations by the Agents to help those who didn't know much about the 'verses in question to understand what was going on. Also, I really didn't expect death by karaoke to crop up in a PPC mission. That was priceless.
Keep it up! -
Wait wait wait... by
on 2012-10-05 06:02:00 UTC
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NCIS? How te hell did that get there??? I mean, these are fantasy anime's! How does a mystery/crime show fit in there?!?!?!
DOESNOTCOMPUTEDOESNOTCOMPUTEDOENOT- -
The author messed up the continuum. by
on 2012-10-05 08:53:00 UTC
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And then mentioned NCIS and Fairy Tail. The characters didn't take part in the story, but ended up in a plothole.
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Some notes about paragraphs by
on 2012-10-03 23:29:00 UTC
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To be frank, I'm gonna have trouble reading this one without more of them. Everything is very smooshed together, and since my vision options at the moment are "no glasses and terrible eyesight" or "old glasses and lots of scratches and smudges," it's a hard prospect. ^_^;
Your options are:
1. Double line-break for each new paragraph (preferred online)
OR
2. Indenting the first line of each new paragraph (typical for print).
Right now you have no indents and only single line-breaks for most paragraphs, with the odd double line-break thrown in with no pattern I can discern, except the ones around badfic quotes. This is hard to read.
Also, every time someone new has an action, they get a new paragraph. I recently learned this goes for all actions, not just speech. You're kinda forced to pay more attention to which things happen in what order this way, leading to a clearer visual for the reader, and there's less confusion for readers trying to sort out what name belongs to what action/speech. It's hard to get used to doing if you aren't, but I've been working on it, and I think it's really made a positive difference for me. I recommend it.
I do look forward to the planet-shattering kabooms eventually, though. *g*
~Neshomeh -
Jumping in late... by
on 2012-10-04 21:19:00 UTC
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Since you and hS seem to have hashed it all out very nicely. I'd be in favor of the 'different people have different styles' approach. Sometimes, individual actions really need their own paragraph; sometimes, they really don't.
Not to give badfic writers or PPCers or anyone really a terrible, terrible excuse, but some of the most distinct, quality writing seems to happen when people consciously break the rules for the sake of the story, and the style. -
I don't think it's /that/ strict. by
on 2012-10-04 07:52:00 UTC
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Consider the following:
Dusky McSnuff swept out of the room, the door slamming in her wake. Robinson looked at Tribble and shrugged. Tribble shook his head. Clarkins chimed in with a snort.
There is no way on earth that deserves to be four paragraphs.
hS -
Why not? by
on 2012-10-04 14:08:00 UTC
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"Hi," said Bob.
"Hi there," Joe said back.
"Nice day."
"Yup."
I think we'd agree that those four lines deserve four paragraphs. Why not yours (which are already a lot more interesting than mine)? Not because the paragraphs wouldn't be long enough...?
Here's the thing that first put me on to this: http://ookamikasumi.deviantart.com/art/The-Secret-to-Paragraphing-152484151
There's a bit in there about not fearing the white space.
That said, the writer is coming at it from the perspective of what's expected in published, printed works, where shorter lines don't seem quite so small as they do on a big browser page. I figure what's good for published authors is good for me, since I want to be one eventually, but if that's not you, or if you don't think this would improve your storytelling, then I'm not gonna force it down anyone's throat.
It has improved mine, though, I think. I have a bad habit of writing things out of order, possibly trying to be funny or clever, or something, but it's often resulted in really murky progressions that even I can't interpret long enough after the fact. Putting this into practice, along with advice about keeping things in strict chronological order as they happen/are noticed, is helping me de-murkify my writing.
~Neshomeh -
I take issue... by
on 2012-10-04 17:58:00 UTC
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... with the logic in that thing you linked to. It appears to run:
Each change of speaker gets a new paragraph > A person is capable of being a speaker > Every new person acting is a change of speaker > Paragraphs should come out of my ears.
The flaw is between the second and third statements. Just because a person /can be/ a speaker doesn't mean they /always are/. For that matter, it doesn't take inanimate objects into account (Jacob whistled. The ball dropped. Jacob whistled a second time).
And... okay, I agree that narrative should be better used, but saying "You have not split your paragraphs according to my rule; to do this, you need to entirely rewrite your story and use six times the words!" goes beyond paragraphing. The author doesn't appear to accept the idea that not everyone has the same style - nor should they! - and that how condensed or expanded events are is a part of this.
... as to your original question: not because they're not long enough, but because they're a) incredibly boring, and b) causally related. A line break is an opportunity to recapture the speaker's attention. Doing so just to tell them the next event in a perfectly ordinary sequence is pointless.
And no, that isn't an excuse to begin every paragraph with a silent "Suddenly---!"
hS -
Style choice, yes. by
on 2012-10-04 18:37:00 UTC
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I feel like you're arguing in favor of fewer, really huge paragraphs, and you probably aren't. Hm.
Anyway, the logic as I understood it was more like:
Each change of speaker gets a new paragraph > Nonverbal speech (i.e. body language, gestures, throwing a punch, otherwise acting) is still speech > Each change of actor gets a new paragraph > Use as many as you need to tell a good story and no more.
The author does come off pretty confrontational in the article, but this is the disclaimer she includes in all her artist's notes:
DISCLAIMER: As with all advice, take what you can use and throw out the rest. As a multi-published author, I have been taught some fairly rigid rules on what is publishable and what is not. If my rather straight-laced (and occasionally snotty,) advice does not suit your creative style, by all means, IGNORE IT.
So there's that.
Really, it didn't make sense to me at first either, but it stuck with me, so I decided to give it a try. It turned out to be really helpful to me. For that reason, I'm recommending other people give it a try, that's all.
~Neshomeh -
What, you don't think? by
on 2012-10-04 18:56:00 UTC
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Once upon a time there was a man and this man had a pet fish and his fish was the biggest fish in all the land of Klumpig and it won all the fish shows until one day a visitor arrived and told the man that a bigger fish had been seen in the river but the man didn't believe it was possible so he went down to the river himself to see and suddenly the biggest fish in the world leapt out at him and it was at least nine feet long and it swallowed him whole and that is how the story ends!
... :P
(And that, too, is a deliberate paragraph-and-sentence choice...)
hS -
Well, if you want to go there-- by
on 2012-10-04 19:10:00 UTC
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I once encountered a fanfic writer who apparently believes all sentences should be their own paragraphs. Enjoy your brain damage. {= D
~Neshomeh -
Request for commentary. by
on 2012-10-04 19:23:00 UTC
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(I will not even mention your sheer cruelty in posting that link, nor the fact that my Grammar Sense will never recover)
Okay. I have just typed up the following two paragraphs:
"It's her own fault, and she'll be back soon anyway. Look, what's Mercuria to you, anyway? You barely know the girl."
I'm sort of divided over how best to split them. On the one hand, Phoebe's actions are directly caused by Liliac's statement, so I would say they belong there. On the other hand, that leaves her spoken line with no tags at all. It's perfectly clear who's speaking, so saying it needs a tag to reduce confusion is incorrect, but... thoughts?
hS -
$0.02 by
on 2012-10-04 19:35:00 UTC
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(I know, right? >.
Had to fish the lines from View Source, but I'd do it like this:
"But you let her fall!" Liliac insisted.
Phoebe scowled and lengthened her stride. "It's her own fault, and she'll be back soon anyway. Look, what's Mercuria to you, anyway? You barely know the girl."
We read the story one thing after the other, so it's clear that Phoebe's reaction is caused by Lilac's words simply because one directly follows the other. That in mind, there's no reason to split Phoebe's actions from her dialogue—it's all part of her reaction, so it belongs together, IMO.
Sadly, I have to run off now. I have a train to catch. Later!
~Neshomeh -
Oops. Shameface. by
on 2012-10-04 20:11:00 UTC
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I'm still somewhat torn on this one, but thank you for your words of wisdom distilled from the extended whatever. See you around. ;)
hS -
Actual real exampling. by
on 2012-10-04 18:31:00 UTC
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"No you're-" Phoebe bit down on the instinctive denial. "What happened?" she asked instead. "Who hit me? And why, I ask in all honesty, am I lying on a suitcase?"
The 'suitcase' in question bucked suddenly underneath her, tipping her to the stone flags of the corridor. "Oh," Phoebe managed to wheeze. "Sorry, Traveller. But really, what's going on?"
I am of the considered opinion that explicitly connecting Phoebe's second line to Traveler's action (there's a reason for the spelling dissonance, but the one-L version is technically-correct-and-never-used) is far more useful than splitting them out of some sense that new actor = new paragraph. It flows better, and it draws cause-effect relationships out better than the alternate version:
"No you're-" Phoebe bit down on the instinctive denial. "What happened?" she asked instead. "Who hit me? And why, I ask in all honesty, am I lying on a suitcase?"
The 'suitcase' in question bucked suddenly underneath her, tipping her to the stone flags of the corridor.
"Oh," Phoebe managed to wheeze. "Sorry, Traveller. But really, what's going on?"
And yeah, it also looks better on a screen - which, despite the curt dismissal of the issue in Nesh's link, is actually important to web-based stories (because no, I'm not going to resize my browser for every page I read; that's slightly ridiculous, and doesn't cover reading in something like MSWord).
hS
PS: On consideration, I think the key point here is to be aware that paragraph-breaks are just as much a decision to make as word-use. Be aware of how you're using them, and you can do it more effectively.
"Time is of the essence, sir!" The Bracket Fungus sensed an impulse to the elf's arm - a sword being drawn. "I'll cut this one down, you're needed at the front!"
Very true, the Fungus admitted. Join me when you are through. He moved forward, feeling the portal slip around him, and then...
Fire.
Heat.
Blazing light.
And nothing. -
Examples! by
on 2012-10-04 18:52:00 UTC
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First - yes to your PS. You have a sensible reason for grouping things the way you do, so that's fine by me.
Second - just to be persnickety, your first example would actually run like this:
"No you're-" Phoebe bit down on the instinctive denial. "What happened?" she asked instead. "Who hit me? And why, I ask in all honesty, am I lying on a suitcase?"
The 'suitcase' in question bucked suddenly underneath her.
She tipped onto the stone flags of the corridor. "Oh," Phoebe managed to wheeze. "Sorry, Traveller. But really, what's going on?"
Personally, I dislike the look of long, single lines that stretch all the way across the screen a lot more than short ones. Especially a bunch of similar length in a row. Like this post. Very... line-y.
~Neshomeh -
I sit corrected. by
on 2012-10-04 18:58:00 UTC
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Although that actually looks even worse, so... :P
hS -
I notice a pattern. by
on 2012-10-04 15:23:00 UTC
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Okay, I was worse. I thought that line breaks belonged between scene changes. And nothing else.
Also, I agree on the difference. When there's this huuuge space between two paragraphs, then these short lines look weird. (The reason why I didn't like using <p> elements until I learned how to get rid of that space.) -
Well, if you really hate double line-breaks... by
on 2012-10-04 16:03:00 UTC
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... which is the default effect of the <p> element—there is the option of using single line-breaks between paragraphs and indenting the first line. But you gotta do something, double breaks or indents. Exactly when to paragraph is debatable, but the fact that you have to somehow set off new paragraphs isn't.
~Neshomeh -
Thank you for the concrit. by
on 2012-10-04 17:07:00 UTC
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I have to admit that I ignored both rules - in the future I'll go for the double-line break (I kinda dislike indentation. Don't know why.)
Unfortunately, Firemagic and I have completely different paragraph structure, so I guess we should have found an agreement on paragraph lenght first too...
I guess I'm one of those "content before form" kind of readers. -
Sounds like fun. by
on 2012-10-03 17:29:00 UTC
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I'm not up to date with any of the series, but since when has that stopped me from enjoying missions?