Subject: How are Sues/character replacements in flashbacks dealt with?
Author:
Posted on: 2021-01-04 06:47:17 UTC
If the Sue/replacement only appears in flashbacks and/or is already dead in the fic's present, how do agents deal with them?
One of my characters is a former Gary Stu, and I’m trying to give him more of a backstory. Do they just get sent to the Reality Room or have the glitter removed? It seems like there are several ways, so I’m just asking for clarification.
The PPC is all about assassinating Sues, but what about Sues that don't die? How do we get rid of Suelicious ghosts/(most continua's) deities/Dementors/Boggarts/etc. if we can't kill them?
(ESAS, probably.)
An OC doesn't have to die to be removed from a continuum, whether it's a Sue or not. If it's of a supernatural persuasion, it's probably susceptible to exorcism or banishment. I don't know why Dementors and Boggarts wouldn't be susceptible to plain old destruction of some sort.
When it comes to deities, they can always be undone by their own illogic and bad writing. Claiming to be a god doesn't mean the Sue actually is one, especially if she's in a continuum with a well-established pantheon that noticeably doesn't include her. The law of canon is always superior to the will of the Sue. So are the laws of sheer logic. Also, being a god doesn't necessarily mean being indestructible.
Same goes for alleged immortals, really. And hey, if their immortality is totally implausible for their continuum, you can always drop them in a Reality Room.
Protip: you are never obligated to take the Sue's word at face value. The whole problem with Sues is that their stories talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Use their plotholes against them.
See: Sahkmet Black, Robecca, Blood Raining Night, and that's just off the top of my head. Maybe take a gander at the Assassination Methods page?
~Neshomeh
I'm not talking about Blud in the Dark Yagami spork who burned to ashes when the fic was set on fire. I'm talking rescued characters who get stabbed by the Sue/Stu trying to aid the agents and thus their bodies aren't disposed. What should be done with them? Should they be left in the fic, or should they be brought back to the HQ?
Consider what you know of mission procedures/requirements. Consider what resources a pair of agents may or may not have available to them, and what feelings they may have about the matter. What are their options? What seems most plausible to you?
It's very likely there's more than one good answer. I want to see how you work through the problem on your own. Teach a person to fish vs. giving them one, you see. {= )
~Neshomeh
P.S. Be sure to apologize to Sergio above. That was a big faux pas.
I first considered rescuing a band of bits and then have them killed in the final battle against the Sue, until I realized they're just as bad as the Sue and probably don't deserve rescuing.
"Battle" per se should not really ever be the outcome of a mission. (Especially not when you're just getting started.) DMS agents are called assassins for a reason. Drawing attention from canon characters who may feel compelled to defend the Suvian is bad. Creating more mess than necessary to clean up is bad. Defeating a Suvian on their own terms by being better warriors than them is really bad, because it means the agents are at risk of being them.
Waiting for a chance to get the Suvian more or less alone so they can be stealthily captured, charged, and executed can also be a great excuse for a really trying mission to continue when it might otherwise end too soon to make a good story. {= )
~Neshomeh
An agent I'm planning is a really pretty bishōnen who wears makeup and hair decorations, and I'm trying as hard as possible to describe him accordingly without crossing into Sueish territory. Those are the only flowery descriptions I bestow him. Is this okay?
It's about why you're describing the character in the narrative. Think of your favourite books - do they sit down and tell you exactly what everyone looks like? Mine certainly don't! They provide details naturally as the story goes along.
It might help to consider the viewpoint character (1st, 2nd, or 3rd-person-limited): a detailed description implies that they're intensely scrutinizing the person they're describing. If that person is themselves? You're implying they're self-absorbed, possibly narcissistically vain. If it's someone else? That's often going to be creepy. Save it for the romantic scenes.
As an experiment: the classic Bold Font picture shows us that Jay is taller than Acacia and redheaded, while Acy is a brunette with glasses. If you just read the missions, when do you think you'd find those things out? Take a minute to make a guess.
~
~
~
Height: The middle of TOS mission 3 defines Jay as 'the taller black cloak'.
Glasses, hair colour: both of these first appear in TOS mission 10, when the agents are seen through the eyes of a class full of terrified OFUM students.
That's ten whole stories before we find out what our protagonists look like! Compare to Suvians who drop paragraphs on themselves in the first chapter...
If you're introducing the character you mention to both the audience and the viewpoint character simultaneously, something like "[tall,] pale, and very pretty" is about all I'd expect. If they already know each other, I wouldn't even anticipate that.
hS
It just...shouldn't take over the story, really, and so on.
See: Tamora Pierce. She tends to describe characters as we meet them, more or less (immediately or within a few lines of dialogue, mostly). Through the descriptions, though, we tend to learn a bit about the new character--their social status, personality, current emotional state, stuff like that. It's also at least sometimes filtered partially through another character's observations, and used to tell us a bit more about said other character and what they notice (can be linked to backstory--for example, Trisana Chandler, who's from a Merchant family, will notice specifically if someone's wearing more or less expensive fabrics, etc, and do so in such a way that you see that she picked up a whole lot of knowledge, was probably even taught it).
Here, I'll find an example.
And here we go! A connected pair of descriptions, from Daja's Book. They're of two of the four main characters, both pretty young at this point (and by chance, at least on my part, originating in directly opposite social classes. Might have been intentional on Pierce's part to place them in the same scene for this early set of descriptions; at any rate, these come from pages 16-18 in my copy). Both characters appeared earlier, with minimal description (a sentence or two here and there, in exactly the style of providing relevant details as the story moves along that you mentioned):
Sandry (Lady Sandrilene fa Toren):
[Sandry] was a slim, fine-boned girl, with bright blue eyes and a stubborn chin. Sunstreaks gilded her brown hair, tidily braided and pinned up under a sheer gray veil. Her overgrown was dove gray linen, sleeveless and plain but for a long row of jet buttons down the front. Jet buttons also twinkled atop her small, black shoes. Her puff-sleeved undergown was white cotton, woven so fine as to be almost comfortable in the stuffy heat of the day. She would have loved to trade this elegant mourning for just one of her light cotton dresses, but that would have shocked the nobles who housed her great-uncle and his companions on this long ride through Duke Vedris' [said great-uncle's] realm. [...] Instead, as long as she rode with the duke, she wore the clothes proper to her station and envied her three friends their freedom to wear colors and fewer layers as she herself did at home.
and Briar (Briar Moss, Sandry's non-biological brother):
Briar leaned against the tree and ate his grapes. Unlike [Sandry], he was dressed for comfort: he wore cotton breeches and normally went barefoot, unless one of their teachers forced him into sandals or boots. At five feet, he was taller than Sandry by a hand's length. He had the glossy black hair--worn short and rough-cut--almond-shaped eyes, and gold-brown skin of an easterner, but a thin-bladed nose and eyes that changed from gray-green to lime green pointed to western blood in one of his parents. He wasn't sure which of them it might be: he had never known his father, and his mother had died when he was four.
(Briar's doing better than some months earlier--if I remember correctly, he used to cut the sleeves off his shirts, not just run around barefoot!)
Anyway: she does take time to describe characters, at moments when it won't grind the story to a halt--earlier, for example, she mentioned that Sandry was dressed richly (in contrast to the other three kids), but she waited for a quieter scene to give the full picture. She also uses the descriptions to tell us useful/interesting things: Sandry's station constraining her, the fact that it doesn't do so in the same way when she's home (and hints that her great-uncle the Duke doesn't mind it); Briar's much less stable childhood (the description only hints at it, but it's mentioned elsewhere and a large part of who he is and how he develops--he was on the streets from his mother's death onwards, surviving as a thief in a little gang), the fact that he's still adjusting to his new life but is actually beginning to relax into it (that's admittedly more noticeable if you've read the previous two books--I have, so I can see the contrast between the boy who complained about the new ways of dressing [claiming parts of it were uncomfortable or unnecessary, and doing things like, as I mentioned, cutting off his sleeves] and this version of him who still has to be forced into shoes but doesn't seem to have really modified his outfit, or to be shifting uncomfortably in it). These are useful descriptions, and she uses them and others like them to build a very complete, colorful world. Side characters will often get much shorter descriptions; it really depends on role, and the observing character, and if they're being used to provide contrast, like the paragraph I just found in a later chapter comparing the hosting noble to Duke Vedris! She uses it to, through Sandry's eyes, comment on...well, basically on them being very different types of people, and to strongly imply that Sandry--of a very similar social class, even!--approves more of her great-uncle's version. Even better, this is a recurring theme throughout the entire series.
Alright. I do, in fact, intend to do something else in the next couple hours, so I'd better wrap this up...but hopefully I've made my point with this impromptu mini-essay on Tamora Pierce's writing style. Detailed descriptions aren't always bad! As with many, many things, it's all in how you use them and where they're placed :)
~Z, who did, in fact, just take the opportunity to dive back into one of her favorite fictional worlds for longer than intended. Why? Because fun!
I think it's much more reasonable to use extended descriptions like this in a novel-length work, where there are expected to be slower sections of world-building exposition and stuff.
In a one-shot like a Permission piece, though, economy of words is important—and it's a good skill to have even if you intend to write novels, too. It's the ability to make deliberate, self-aware choices, say what you mean, and mean what you say. If you've got a handle on clear, concise prose, then, if you choose to be flowery or meandering at times, your audience can feel confident that there's a good reason for it.
~Neshomeh might have more than two cents' worth of opinions on this topic.
I agree with everything hS said, except that I'd advocate a best practice of giving your audience some idea of what your protagonists look like in their first appearance, while keeping it sensible for the POV and narrative voice you're using. If there's an observing character who would think "they remind me of a porcelain doll," that's fine. It's a simple description that gives a lot of information in just a few words, which can be very effective. But, like hS says, the words you choose and how you use them do imply things about the observer as much as or more than the observed, so be careful how you frame your description—especially since connotations may vary. Your observer may like dolls, but some people find them really creepy.
Also, if a more distant narrator is being extra-poetic about a particular character, that might very well raise Suvian flags for me.
But yeah, describing a character certainly shouldn't be immediate if there are more important things for the audience to be paying attention to, such as the all-important establishment of "where are we, what's happening, and why should I care?" Your picture can be built up gradually, as the pieces become relevant. It doesn't take much at all to give people an idea. It can be as simple as choosing your nouns well and/or slipping in an adjective now and then while describing an action the character is doing.
It's really very much more about the how and why than the what.
~Neshomeh's two cents.
An agent I'm planning out has a montsuki haori (haori with crest) coat with the dept flash patch as the mon. The montsuki haori would typically have two crests on both chests and one on the back, and some have extra two on both sleeves. If there can't be multiple flash patches, there's also a variant with only one crest on the back.
I don't think there's ever been an exact procedure described for how agents acquire their flash patches, but by the same token, I don't recall anyone ever having trouble getting one, either. They don't seem to be in limited supply. Even if they were, there's definitely nothing stopping an agent with some sewing, silk-screening, or other relevant skill from replicating the design on their clothes if they want to. They might get some funny looks from their colleagues, but hey, most agents are eccentric in one way or another. Coming off a bit gung-ho about their department wouldn't be that weird. {= )
... Well, unless it's DAVD, maybe. DAVD has a certain (undeserved) reputation. But it doesn't even have an established flash patch, so I don't imagine that's what you're thinking of anyway. {= )
~Neshomeh
Simply put, I'm talking the "neighbor" from Plants vs. Zombies, the admiral in Kantai Collection, the saniwa in Touken Ranbu – player characters that have no identity, no characterization, no appearance, no dialogue, but actually exist in the continuity and control most of the game's actions. They are wide canvases for ficcers to fill in however they see fit (for example), so the question is: should badly written characters of this type be treated as Sues (seeing as they still exist in canon) or possessions (seeing as they have no characterization to overwrite)? This is a question that's burning in my mind for a while now, because gosh, this TouRabu fan can no longer count the number of badly written saniwa OCs.
I think the answer would depend on how OOC they are. If they still broadly follow their game role - running an army or whatnot - they sound more likely to be possessed (or even, potentially, just OOC, if it's still the focus of their character!). If they've gone completely off-piste - perhaps they're flirting with their subordinates while the war is being lost - then they've been replaced, because they only had one thing and it's been taken from them.
But also: whatever works best for the person writing the mission. ^_~
hS
But the thing is, what should the character turn into after exorcism, since the NEGs I mentioned above are never on-screen?
"... returning NO MORE!"
The General's eyes had just enough time to widen before the bulky DVD case hit them right between the eyes. For an instant a light surrounded them, a purple so bright it felt more like a hole in space; then it was gone, as if it had never been.
So was the General.
"Wait, what?" Freckles stared at the game case, lying alone on the floor. "Where did they... did I just fumble an exorcism into a banishment?"
Sandra chuckled and walked over to collect the case. "Not that I'd put it past you, but I think they've just gone back where they're supposed to be."
"Which is right here!" Freckles protested. She frowned up at the Words, which were wavering as the story lost cohesion. "That's what it said, I'm sure of it."
"In the story, right." Sandra held up the game. "But in the canon?"
"Well... okay," Freckles allowed. "So where are they meant to be?"
Sandra shrugged. "Exactly," she said.
"... that wasn't very helpful."
"Neither is incarnating non-character user interfaces, but that's badfic for you."
Or something along those lines. As long as you don't accidentally incarnate God in the fic, you're probably good. :)
hS
All three games I listed above are entirely software and don't have hard copies. I guess this can be solved for PvZ by copying it into a hard drive, but the latter two are online browser games. That's gonna prove difficult for exorcism.
Sandra and Freckles have demonstrated some variant exorcisms, and the Wiki article discusses them a bit.
More generally: the PPC is about being creative! 'This precise criterion cannot be met, so we can't do it' is not in the agents' dictionary. (I mean, it's not in my dictionary either; that would be a weird dictionary.)
hS
Can permitted writers choose RC numbers for their agents, or are they granted by the HQ?
The answer to one is yes. The answer to the other is no. I think you can probably work out which is which if you think about it for a second. {= ) It helps if you've read some stories set in the PPC to see how things work, too. Doing this is essential if you're interested in writing PPC stories of your own at some point.
~Neshomeh
Seeing as Vocaloids don't have a canon (though some later ones are given vague backgrounds and/or personalities by their companies), but are still copyrighted material, are characters, and have a fandom that also produces fics all over the quality spectrum, anybody have any guides/ideas on dealing with Vocaloid badfics?
If, for example, there's an agent whose important characteristic is inability to use swords/knives/what-have-you and can only bludgeon/strangle/shoot/etc., is that okay or is that a crippling problem?
The answer depends on why an inability to use a particular class of weapons would be remarkable. I mean, most people I know don't know how to use any weapons at all. That takes serious interest and training.
Also, none of my agents use bladed weapons. Well, except for the Andalite, who comes with bladed weapon attached—and even he isn't very good at it, because he hasn't trained, either.
So, what made you think an agent had to be a blademaster?
~Neshomeh
https://ppc.fandom.com/wiki/Sword
Given his eventual ending, Peter Piper might not be the most reliable of sources...
All right, more kindly: his concern was with Suvian agents. Given that Suvians come from fanfic, and PPC fanfic was inspired by Jay and Acacia's mission reports, it's true that his experience would include an inordinate level of swordplay. But that doesn't mean everyone can do it.
Really, though, the PPC is much less coherent than the wiki makes it look. Things happen based on what the writers think makes the story work/funny, and we impose a sense of cohesiveness after the fact. This is the organisation navigated by "it's a bit of a maze, unless you hadn't noticed" - the Rule of Funny is in full effect. ;)
hS
The Sword page used to include a list of agents known to use swords. I counted thirty-something and rounded up to 40.
There are 896 pages in the Agents category.
Even assuming the list was very incomplete and allowing that that information is from 2009, I'm guessing it would be a stretch to say that more than ten percent of agents use swords—and even then, not everyone on the list used on regularly.
I guess it's time for an edit!
~Neshomeh
You're wrong, you wrong person! You don't even exist anyway, so of course you're wrong! Everyone here uses swords - two swords at a time! Some of them are MADE of swords! Just the other day a sword came in and spoke to me - SPOKE to me! I swear by my own partner's grave, it's all swords, all the time!
Good evening, Peter, it's time for your- oh heavens, who let Piper have a console? You all know that sets him off!
It was the swords, I tell you! THE SWORDS!
I'm sure it was, Peter; I'll have a word with Agent Backslash later. Now come on, give me the console... that's right...
SWORDS!
((Peter Piper has been ensconced in FicPsych since 2018. He doesn't seem to be improving much. ~hS))
… may I introduce you to Touken Ranbu? Y'know, whose characters literally are swords and all…
"Give him an extra pudding cup; one of the chocolate ones. He's had a hard day." —Jenni
My new FicPsych headcanon is that pudding cups are one of the few things they can reliably keep in stock, because it's just one of those weird little multiversal certainties, isn't it? Hospitals and psych institutions serve pudding cups; It Is Known. But chocolate is Better and therefore Scarce, so it must be reserved for special occasions.
Also, I blame Immac for the console (which is a laptop in this scenario...?). I'm sure Peter sounded very reasonable while he was asking for it, though!
Also also, I wonder who regularly interacts with him? Freedenberg, probably... anyone else? Perhaps not Jenni, seeing as he probably knows and objects to her backstory? Though, OTOH, getting him to the point of being okay with her could be part of his rehabilitation? And, heck, he'd probably shout at any and all of them under the right circumstances, wouldn't he? I'm just curious now. ^_^
~Neshomeh
What's the equivalent of pudding cups for the O Christmas Tree? Little fertilizer cups? Bauble polish? Extra shiny tinsel?
(the o christmas tree has a big gold star on his topmost branch. it is someone in ficpsych's job to shine it. the o christmas tree enjoys it very much.)
On the one hand, I already know reader-inserts are a form of second-person and thus require crash dummies, but on the other hand, how are the variables ([y/n], [e/c]) handled?
Nothing special really happens. The text just appears in the Words. If [y/n] is described as doing something, the crash dummy will do it because they are You.
What will the dummies turn into, since variables are not defined by the narrative by definition?
Gotta be careful, leaving your variables wide open like that. Why, anything could fall in. *cue evil laughter and ominous lightning-flash*
~Neshomeh
If the Sue/replacement only appears in flashbacks and/or is already dead in the fic's present, how do agents deal with them?
Depending on how many flashbacks there are, how integral they are to the plot, and simply whether or not the PPCer feels like dealing with them, you could choose to interpret the situation in a couple different ways. If they're just memories that only exist in the present canon characters' heads, then neuralyzing them would take care of the problem. If the flashbacks are substantial enough, though, the agents could deal with characters in them like they'd deal with any other characters. Then, either they'll be transported into the flashback(s) like any other scene change, or they could portal there as though they were time-travelling.
Or something else I haven't thought of. There aren't too many hard and fast rules for how to deal with things. Respecting precedent is encouraged if there is some, but in the end, it's all down to what's most entertaining. {= )
~Neshomeh
Just remember that Reality Rooms force logic on whatever's inside them with extreme prejudice, so before using them on a potential recruit, you have to make sure that the recruit's existence or continued health isn't inherently contradictory to canon. Also, HQ has no method of manually removing glitter from Suvians, either, as that would mean we could resolve every badfic peacefully and then there would be no assassinations and no fun.
If that’s the case, Doom will definitely be taking a trip to the Reality Room. It won’t kill him, seeing as his heritage is possible in the verse he comes from, but he’ll definitely lose his powers, which will annoy him to no end.
Any of these may be use separately or in combination, depending on the individual case (i.e., what makes the most entertaining story).
Also, I must note that claiming a character has been instantly cured of Suedom without doing any actual work to improve himself would be, ironically, pretty Sueish. Definitely take his powers away if that's the story you want to tell, but remember that Suedom is far more about the execution of a trait or ability than the thing itself. {= )
~Neshomeh
May I use Jenny Robinson in a quick cameo at the end of my permission request?
I'd want to look it over before you post anything, and I'll just note right here that it's a bit soon for either you or Ki no Shi to make an attempt at Permission. We barely know you, and vice versa! And, well, it's spelled "Jenni" with an i. Easy mistake to make, far from the first time it's happened, but attention to detail is something we look for in potential PPCers, and missing it does make me more hesitant to let you borrow her.
That said, go ahead and email me or PM me on Discord with what you have in mind. I'm interested in any FicPsych-related ideas you want to develop. {= )
~Neshomeh
Yeah, sure, I’ll email you. I’m still trying to figure out Discord (I swear my iPad has a personal grudge against that website) so that would work best for me,
