It sounds like there's an awful lot of consensus. We as a community aren't comfortable around SRPA, and nobody's expressed any hesitation on that front. The question that remains is duration.

There's clearly almost universal agreement that we're talking about years. There's also what feels like a shared sentiment that we'd be fine with significantly more than one - most of the times suggested are "at least" a year, and there's people suggesting it should be permanent, or effectively so.

As such, I'd like to suggest two years. A lot can happen in two years; people grow, situations change, and that's really what we want to see here: a change in situation. And... SRPA's hurt people here. I think we need more than a single year to heal.

Thoughts? Agreements? Disagreements?

I would be in favor of a ban lasting a minimum of one year.

Knowingly posting inappropriate content after being explicitly asked not to at the very least starts to cross the border from ignorance to maliciousness to me.

Gonna preface this by saying lately, I've not had good interactions on the discord, and am largely angry for various reasons, and that's probably putting bias on this. But hey, that's neither here nor there, so here are my thoughts.

SRPA's behavior has been longstanding, people have called him out for it, he is quick to apologize and delete posts, but there is no learning from these deleted posts. That doesn't bode well. That's it. A lack of learning and an incongruity with the community. It's just been escalated by the fact that he's made people uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it when people who I consider to be my friends feel unpleasantness.

Ban until further notice, ie don't have a set end date in time. If he wants back, he can wait however long it takes for people to not care enough or prove that he's capable of learning.

• Helsinki, miffed

As Delta put it, SRPA's not improving at any rate I'm comfortable with, and has been doing a pretty bad job of following the Constitution and otherwise not harming several people in the community.

I figure that the improvement we're looking for, if it happens, needs to not happen here, and given how many people he's made thoroughly uncomfortable at best (heck, I'm not that comfortable interacting with him, and while that's very much not a banning offense, it really doesn't help matters once a plausible case for a ban has been assembled...) and how little improvement there's been, it's time to call it.

I'd say we want an indefinite ban of at least a year. (After that year, if SRPA was going to come back, I'd want to hear clearly what steps he'd taken to make sure we don't get near this point again. I'm not sure I'd see that happening, so this is likely in practice a permaban vote, but I want to leave our options open.)

One thing i noticed is that the "posting significantly inappropriate stuff in chat a bunch" aspect of this reminds me somewhat of Ammo Guy (tw: mentions of bestiality), and some of the conduct at issue is inching close to that type of situation, so ... yeah. More support for a ban vote.

On a broader note, one thing I've had pointed out to me is that a lot of people were rather uncomfortable with going on harmed by SRPA being in the chat (and/or the community in general?) for a while now, but this thread only went up after a recent incident where a lot of folks were simultaneously unhappy. Was this just a case of there not being an obvious enough reason to start the ban talk until now? Or was there an element of no one wanting to start the thread until they knew other people would be on board because they didn't want to be the person "starting drama"?

Calling for things like bans is a hard problem, since there's a tension between letting people learn from their mistakes and protecting other members of the community, so I'm not trying to attack anyone over the timing of how this was handled. I happen to thnk we probably did a reasonable job of it, but, for example, the people more directly hurt by SRPA might disagree and think we should've acted noticeably sooner. Or had some way to discover that yeah, a lot of other people are having problems too.

- Tomash, throwing difficult questions at the wall to see what happens

General principles:

1. The Constitutional points Delta Juliette raised apply in all PPC spaces.

2. No means no; stop means stop. This shouldn't be difficult to understand.

3. It is incumbent upon a newcomer to a private group to learn the group's ways and assimilate. The group is not required to accept anyone who can't or won't assimilate.

Personally: my experiences with SRPA have also been awkward or annoying.

It seems pretty clear after this much time that he can't or won't assimilate. If someone doesn't leave on their own when that's the case, it's right to ban them.

At the same time, though, I do want to caution us against possibly being a little too sensitive and imposing our personal values on others? This is basically an unconnected aside in that it doesn't bear on the question of whether or not SRPA should be banned and I don't feel any separate discussion is required. I feel the need to speak about this for my own personal reasons.

(cw applies below)

Context matters. In Korea, eating a live octopus is an admittedly extreme version of a normal food. If I kill a spider, I'm overcoming a phobia in order to deal with something that is causing me anxiety. That CAN be an accomplishment--not the killing, which I don't like and wouldn't boast about, but the overcoming of irrational fear. (OTOH, leaving the spider alive and putting it outside would be an even bigger accomplishment for me.) And, I think there's a big difference between the sort of dark humor that can encompass a cartoon cat doing something upsetting and anything at all to do with harm to a REAL cat (and I say this as someone with a lifelong Thing about cats in particular). If most of us agree that it's in poor taste, that's fine, but conflating cartoon violence with real violence is a mistake.

We don't all have the same values or sensitivities, and sometimes it's our responsibility to learn to cope with our unique sensitivities in a healthy way rather than to expect everyone around us to alter their everyday behavior so we don't have to learn to cope. I want to be sure we all bear this in mind.

(cw applies above)

ALL THAT SAID, I realize that my sense of foreboding about going too far with circling the wagons is a personal problem to a degree.

It IS responsible to ask for help dealing with our issues if we need it, and it's fair to expect reasonable requests to stop a specifically upsetting behavior to be respected. SRPA hasn't shown that basic respect; it is quite right for SRPA to be banned.

~Neshomeh

As some others have suggested, I'd personally go for a one-year ban for SRPA, plus something I'd like to suggest.

From my perspective (and if I'm remembering correctly), whenever he got called out, he ran away either by asking for a ban or leaving the server from seeing people react negatively to his actions rather than understanding the exact reason people were upset with him. It seems to me like he came back only when he thought people would move on and thus not confront him.

So, if SPRA were to be temporarily banned and x number of years have passed, he should be talked to about the reason he was banned to make sure he absolutely understood before being let back in.

It's always difficult for me when there's a problem with someone else's behaviour on the Board or in the community as a whole. I feel like my past history is why I don't get to comment. There's a little voice in my head that tells me whenever I pass judgment on someone else it's nothing more than gross hypocrisy, especially if I want to call for a ban for someone's conduct. How many chances did I get, after all?

But that's the point. I've discussed this with a couple of people and the difference here is that I have always tried to improve. And I have! It took me a long time, but I did.

SRPA doesn't seem willing to try.

SRPA has had what needs to happen explained to him multiple times, and he has not done it. SRPA breaks the rules and then tries to hide evidence of his having done so by deleting posts. SRPA makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, and truth be told? SRPA really gets on my nerves. To the point where it is seriously endangering my recovery. I feel like I cannot talk to him about it either, because if I do then I can't help but think it'll result in me completely losing my temper. He talks frequently and repeatedly about xvyyvat fznyy navznyf (rot13ed for animal cruelty), but asks people to tag talking about sandwiches because one of the blacklisted topics is jokes about animals being food. I don't think it's necessarily malicious on his part, but I also don't think we are obliged to sweetly explain why something is wrong over and over again with a cup of cocoa and a cuddle.

As such, I must recommend SRPA receive at least a one-year ban. To do anything else would be, in my opinion, disrespectful to the people he routinely makes feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. I'm sorry that it's come to this, but enough's enough.

I'll admit that I haven't had many unpleasant interactions with SRPA. Since I'm on the autism spectrum, I tend to try and have the benefit of the doubt when people don't really seem to 'get it' at first when it comes to what is and isn't acceptable in a given situation. But I also tend to have various channels on the Discord muted except for when I want to look at them. And even then I've been avoiding looking at the videos he posts in recs-and-plugs, since the tags he tends to use aren't really anything I want to see if I can avoid it.

Honestly, when I see him post a video or something that's tagged with a bunch of things that generally aren't considered acceptable here with no context, I just kind of think "if you know you have to tag it with so many things, why post it here in the first place? This clearly isn't the type of place that's into that." I've debated bringing that up with him before, but ended up not doing so. Seeing the screenshots Delta posted kind of makes me wonder if it would've even changed anything.

It doesn't seem like he's acting maliciously, but it also doesn't seem like he's trying to change his behavior (and in my opinion it's almost gotten worse, since he seems to think that it's fine to post things out of nowhere if he just tags them correctly). He also seems to think that deleting any not-so-good messages he posted after the fact makes it okay when that's not the case. Just because an uncomfortable message is gone doesn't mean that people weren't able to see it and be bothered by it. All it really does is get rid of the evidence.

All in all, I don't think that a ban would be a bad idea. Especially since he's been given multiple warnings already.

I don't know when exactly these incidents happened and I haven't experienced any, as I'm new and I can't be on the Discord as often as I want to be. But I think it's clear that SRPA, despite being given many chances, isn't improving. There's nothing I can say that hasn't been touched upon before, but I agree with almost everything in this thread. I feel that a ban is the only way to even try to stop SRPA from engaging in this behavior. As for the length of the ban, I'd say at least 8 or so months.

My interactions with him were mostly passive. This might turn out to be a 'pot and kettle' situation, but he presents himself as an awkward type (And SRPA if you're reading this, feel free to rebuke me) whenever he interacts with people. His sense of humour is specific to say the least, yet there is no room for discussion that it breaks the rules established by both the PPC Constitution and the Discord agreements. I don't think, however, he has malicious intentions in mind; he seems to geniuenly not realize he's hurting people. Perhaps his comments and jokes are a norm in his circle of friends and peers (which is something I can understand, coming from a xenophobic, conservative background), but he was asked to try and adjust his behaviour multiple times.

Because of the aforementioned, I cannot vote for anything else but banning SRPA from interacting with the PPC. The length of the banishment I propose is at least 1 year, with a possibility of returning.

SRPA's behaviour during his stay here has distressed a number of people, to the point that us mods had to enact an order for him not to interact with another member in the server, in addition to all the other grievances shown here.

In light of all that, as well as his unwillingness or inability to change his behaviour significantly despite multiple warnings, I'm in favour of a ban for at least one year, if not longer.

I have never interacted directly with SRPA, and I'm not exactly active on Discord, but I will admit that a lot of their posts make me uncomfortable. The feeling intensified as I saw the examples listed here. Apparently, some other people are being affected much more than me, and this is not okay. I propose a ban, though I'm not sure how long, as I don't feel like I have had enough interaction with them to decide.

(Or just one year minimum, with the IP block.)

Though he also sounds like he needs RL help/intervention, and if he doesn't get it I worry he may harm people (in addition to animals as previously mentioned in this thread) offline as well.

So, granted, SRPA was kinda awkward at first, but that seemed like standard newbie stuff, but then stuff like kinda nasty revenge plans on his brother, callousness to animal abuse, and apparently actually hurting people here started giving off a vibe of "ehhh..." Like, I kinda get some of his behavior, since I think I've seen something like this before (though admittedly not as extreme) and, well, i'm inclined to believe that people can change, so I figure a ban of at least a year might give him time to mature a bit more. Hopefully.

I'll confess that I've been rather annoyed by certain ways SRPA has interacted with the community for a while (such as his recent editing of the PPC wiki without knowing if his edits were actually correct, which he himself admitted on the edit page) and I've been rather uncomfortable communicating with him, but I haven't been affected beyond that - mostly because I rarely go on the Discord most of the time. So seeing how much he's hurt other members of the community, knowingly or unknowingly, was a very unpleasant shock. Frankly, I don't care anymore if he's trying his best to communicate with us or not after seeing all the things he's been doing here. Anyone who posts content like that on the Discord repeatedly, despite being clearly asked to stop (that, and all the other things he's said and done - that AFSJ yhor cbfg seriously threw me for a loop) needs to go.

To sum up: I've had my issues with SRPA for a while, but seeing Delta's full post now, I vote for a permaban. Clearly temporary bans and trying to discuss things with him have been ineffective. He needs to leave.

I've never really interacted with him, but some of his posts have made me sort of uncomfortable and reading the full account of what he's done, I think that some sort of ban is needed.

I'm usually quite a forgiving person, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I don't really have anything else to contribute, so that was my 10 cents.

I've not been around here much of late, but what I have seen of SRPA's behaviour has always made me a bit uneasy. At first I was happy to chalk it up to new person learning the customs of a new community and expecting that some of the rough edges might get smoothed, but from those examples it's clear that SRPA is not adjusting behaviours even when requested to, and it seems to be the point to take action if others in the community are being affected.

Elcalion

I've interacted with SRPA a handful of times. He's been quite civil to me, and learning about what he's done, I'm feeling quite uncomfortable.

However, my feelings don't negate the fact that he's been rather insensitive, especially to Voyd, and acted petty and spiteful in #generic_salt. This is pushing the boundaries a bit too much, and I get a fear response every time I see him get a bit close to potentially triggering topics.

It may not have been intentional, but it is hurting the community. I vote at least a one-year ban from the server and the Board.

Partly for personal reasons, but dreading seeing his name pop up did no favours for my mental health. He'd already gotten away once with calling me a drug abuser and barely apologising for it.

I've been silent in the PPC for... maybe the last month? and just lurking on the Board, but I'm breaking my silence to add to what everyone else has said. He makes me deeply uncomfortable and has shown no improvement in his interactions with the community, and after seeing this from Delta?

I would vote for a ban.

I mean, when we talk about this stuff, there doesn't seem to be any reason why he won't get it. He seems to understand? But he can't do it. In some areas he's improved- he spoiler tags things he didn't before, previously.

But honestly, the problem that I see is that SRPA seems to have a lot of trouble understanding the spirit, rather than just the letter, of the law. For instance, the difference between carefully spoiler tagging things that happen in badfic and making sure to tell people when it's not ok, and straight up posting stuff that is Not Ok- properly warned about, but still unasked for, unwarranted, and purposeless.

The differences in context also seem to be the problem with the barely censored profanity. He understands that we don't type out profanity, but has difficulty complying when told that we have a specific procedure for censoring things- namely, rot13. He doesn't understand when discussing certain topics is for one purpose, and acceptable if properly and carefully marked, and when it's unsolicited, harmful, and not something that's wanted in the community at any time.

The reason this is so concerning is the serious harm it causes others, something I'm not sure if he understands. I don't understand him a lot-it's hard to tell if he is aware of this, which is the kind of thing that makes me feel reluctant to argue for a ban- I just keep hoping I can find something, and it can be fixed.

I feel like I'm not the only one who's reluctant just because of the sheer lack of understanding. As many people have noted, talking with him often just feels strange. In the past, he's done things like continue to refer to people by their original handles after they explicitly changed their name and told everyone about it. The person didn't feel the need to correct them, but referring to someone by one name while everyone else calls them another just feels really strange to me. Often when I discuss things with him, I worry I'm somehow targeting him for these social differences, even though I know that the problem isn't that, and is something completely different. I don't know, I just felt like the topic needed to be brought up.

There's one more topic, sort of unique to me, but also public, that I want to bring up. If anyone feels that this is too much or airing dirty laundry or whatever, please let me know and I'll delete it. That's the topic of SRPA's talking about Curtis. He discusses his brother often in a negative light, which isn't a problem, as plenty of people discuss family stuff and bad family situations in #generic-salt. For context, in some cases he's brought up his brother in completely unrelated conversations. In other cases, he's discussed violence towards his brother. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cBR3yPNVzrV5ceLC3wGbQ0VHHAwbFh/view?usp=sharing However, on some occasions he's discussed revenge plans towards his brother- at one point he discussed destroying his brother's electronic equipment, which I told him wasn't okay. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TkJHZvObLemHf4uoEcFCXzRuX-7Uxy2Q/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j0NuaO0COZ8A2r2gR129KsQy81Wxzi31/view?usp=sharing He posted a screenshot from an article that contained advice which seriously concerned me, to the point where I considered the advice to be bordering on emotional abuse. (The screenshot he sent to chat is included in my subsequent links.) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aNSCjCXvOQUcFdKEjKVVCjeQSfvnjPAW/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/15ZYbMHdfUNYnuETXWS7liXcKkJR55L/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U5KlQBPHf3tV2fISgPz7HVeACuYpZY9y/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rDcxlwNtX2s3GbJ2Csv5inC0vLy6dFgD/view?usp=sharing I can't really point to any way that this behavior violates the Constitution. I didn't explicitly ask him to stop, because I didn't feel like I had the right to tell him he couldn't complain about his brother, who SRPA related being strangled by in the past. I did bring up the second instance to a mod. In other words, I don't know if this behavior is objectionable or should be considered an "offense", but I do know that I feel like I've had to talk someone out of behavior I consider violent, and that it was incredibly stressful to do so, and that I never felt sure as to whether I'd have to do it again.

But I don't know if someone who doesn't understand the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, and the context in which discussions are had, can ever be fully compatible with the PPC. And as others have said, the harm to others isn't worth the effort to try.

Considering the lack of effect that previous bans have had, and the extent to which harm has been done, I would honestly be in favor of a ban for two and a half years, which may seem extreme. But I can't see this behavior changing in a year. I would also be willing to consider a permanent ban.

I can almost always be found in the Discord, but for the past few weeks I've been working hard on final exams. A few times, I would come back online just as the metaphorical dust was settling, so this is the first time I've actually seen the things SRPA has been posting. Now that I have, I suddenly feel a lot less comfortable with having him in the Discord. I think a ban of some sort is definitely in order.

I don't feel comfortable (yet) suggesting a time length on such a ban or commenting on whether the ban should be restricted to just the Discord server, so I'll leave that up to others. If I decide later to make a recommendation, then I will reply to this post so it's clearly visible.

As our resident work addict, I've missed most of the more egregious actions SomeRandomPersonAccount has taken. However, I have to agree with what many others have said already: I avoid interacting with him because there's a disconnect in speaking with him that makes things awkward and confusing. It really does feel like we're not quite in the same reality, and it's frustrating.

I was fine with ignoring it, since I thought harmless confusion was the full extent of the problem . . . but now that Delta Juliette has shown that SRPA's behavior is indeed causing more harm than that, I do feel that we need to address this problem.

So, to briefly go over the state of things:

1. SRPA has made a habit of posting things not appropriate for the community, including things triggering for certain members, and failing to either warn for them properly or, I would argue, understand in what way they were inappropriate to begin with.

2. SRPA has been asked multiple times to change this behavior and has failed to do so, despite being in the PPC a full ten months now.

3. SRPA generally has difficulty communicating properly or meaningfully with a large portion of the rest of us. This would not be an issue on its own, but needs to be taken into account alongside all the other points.

4. SRPA has already seen a temporary ban from the Discord. It was a ban requested by him, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a measure that was already attempted by the community, and failed to elicit a change.

I think the by-the-books next step would be to escalate the Discord-only temporary ban to include the entire community. However, we've already seen that SRPA returned from his original ban with no behavioral change, and I suspect another temporary ban would yield the same lack of result. That's why, in light of the history of unchanging behavior, and the fact that SRPA regularly brings up triggering topics that are harmful to specific members of our community, I'm going to be the bad guy and advocate for a full permanent ban from the community at this point. I do understand some may consider this too harsh too quickly, but I personally feel it's our best option at this point.

—doctorlit

(As a preface, I haven't read any of the replies to this as of writing - my intention right now is to say my piece, then keep my nose out of this discussion until and unless a formal vote is called for or someone points out that I've said something decidedly uncool, in which case, make a reply post here and include a request for a moderator to poke me on Discord, elsewise I will not see it.)

I don't see the point in wasting my breath on being eloquent or even especially polite about this matter. SRPA has been formally spoken to on three separate occasions about his conduct, with mod hat explicitly on. Those are just the times I know of. In my book, without any notable effort made to actually improve his behavior in the slightest, that's a sign on his own that he and this place don't get along.

I won't make baseless accusations about why he does the things he does. That won't serve a purpose. But I will formally propose, at the very least, that SRPA should be officially given the boot. We have been endlessly patient with him, given him every reasonable benefit of the doubt, and he seems to have taken that to mean he can use us to wipe his feet. He has done nothing but hurt community members again and again and again.

He needs to go.

At this point, I don't think he's going to learn. He has done the same things again and again. Not to mention that he just came back to the community Discord a few weeks ago after doing the delete-a-message thing again after insulting other members of the community. He has not demonstrated any actual efforts to improve what he does, and only seems to go through the motions for a moment to try and get us off his back. Just like how he 'bans' himself for a while before coming back.

As a result of all of this, I am gonna have to support a ban as well. For how long? I don't know. But some level of ban is required at this point, and not just his self-inflicted one that he basically ends when he gets wants.

I'd like to believe SRPA isn't being actively malicious, but at the end of the day what matters is that they've broken the rules repeatedly and failed to learn from it. Maybe they could learn eventually, but I don't think that possibility is worth the harm to the rest of the community.

I'm not sure what exactly should be done if we're in agreement that the line's been drawn, but I'm supporting some kind of ban. I'm just tired of my friends being hurt and would very much like that to stop,

Fair warning: this gets a little personal.

SRPA is...hard for me to wrap my head around. He's confusing and scary to interact with, and even when he isn't actively doing anything in particular, I don't feel safe around him, to the point where my brain just...shuts down when he's in a conversation. (Though I do have to admit his cat is cute.)

I'm... not really sure where I was going with this, but his mere presence, to me, has become pure concentrated mindshpxery, and not the fun kind. Had to block him a while back because just seeing his messages nearly drove me to self-harm.

While I do believe that people can and should be given second chances if they show willingness to improve (and I am a walking testament to that fact), the slow rate at which it's happening, coupled with the harm it's causing others, give me reason to say that it might be a good course of action to ban SRPA temporarily. I'd suggest a year or so. Let's hope he learns his lesson this time.

Anyone who’s talked to me on Discord knows I’m reluctant to call out my acquaintances on things that bother me. But SomeRandomPersonAccount is testing the limits of my diplomacy. His latest post left me appalled and speechless. Given how often this has happened, I don’t trust him to learn and improve.

Admittedly I haven't been looking at anything SRPA has spoilered, but that's because I've been a bit uncomfortable with his presence for a while now. At first it was just the simple misunderstandings that I relegated my unease with to anxiety, which I still believe to be the case, but since then I've seen him continue on borderline or most definitely uncomfortable topics - especially whenever he brings up his brother.

If it were just culture shock of some sort I'd understand, but he doesn't seem to get what is and isn't appropriate for us even after being told (or he simply doesn't care, but I'm hesitant to entertain that as anything but conjecture).

I don't believe I've specifically been on the receiving end of particularly unsettling comments (though the fact that that feels like something I should specify is throwing up all sorts of flags) but more often than not I find myself purposefully not interacting with SRPA if I can help it.

Warnings don't seem to be working, no matter how gentle or harsh, so I find myself leaning towards a ban of some sort.

I hate to say it, but, assuming we were to allow SRPA to remain a member of the community, which granted, is seeming unlikely at this point:

I think that the odds that he would repeat such behavior greatly outweigh the chances of him eventually learning from his past...actions. And, given the number of people negatively affected and/or hurt by those actions, I have to say, I think even that slim chance isn't worth the far more likely and immediate chance of him continuing to negatively impact other members of the community.

Now, I haven't been particularly hurt, myself, by SRPA's actions, beyond being somewhat put off and creeped out by some of the content he posted. However, as Helsinki put it during the aftermath: "I'm not affected as seriously as some other people are by content on the blacklist...But I do not enjoy my peers being brought unpleasantness and unhappy feelings."

So, in answer, I think the line is here and now, if we are willing as a community to draw it.

(Yes I know I barely talk on the Board - my apologies. Not super confident in socialisation.)

I'm in agreement that the line ought to be drawn. While I haven't seen the worst of what he's done - I find him a bit uncomfortable to talk to, and often try to avoid addressing him because yes, he just does not stop. Even after being told to censor properly, I'm fairly certain I've still seen instances of him not doing so, for instance, and the way he conducts himself is generally uncomfortable to talk to & shows no sign of learning.

The most I've seen from SRPA was only partially bleeping a few curse words here and there.

Knowing that SRPA has posted this stuff has made me feel a bit uncomfortable.

It just... doesn't seen like he'll stop. At all.

He says he'll stop, but he doesn't.