Subject: Nvm, didn't recognize an acronym.
Author:
Posted on: 2023-03-09 20:15:01 UTC
-
Someone from FANDOM just went through and deleted some pages. by
on 2023-03-07 22:24:07 UTC
Edited
Serious business
Reply
Some of them were kinda pointless, like the Chaser Wolf page. But now the Celebrian and Rose Potter pages have been deleted.
I think we need to fix this.
-Ls
-
Question on NSFW issues... by
on 2023-03-11 04:59:20 UTC
Reply
Is the main NSFW issue at hand sexuality, or are other topics included too? Checking through the NSFW category and Legendary Badfics, I noted that Cupcakes is on there, and was curious if that might pose a problem and is something we should look into, or if it's fine.
-
So far, just sexuality. (Typical, right?) by
on 2023-03-11 05:13:05 UTC
Reply
But, like all the Legendary articles, "Cupcakes" should equally be rewritten to discuss the mission, not the badfic. Please feel free to volunteer!
~Neshomeh
-
I'll give it a go in the morning! by
on 2023-03-11 05:49:44 UTC
Reply
I might also have a look at Not There, which I think could be made less explicit, hopefully enough to avoid problems.
-
What Now? Part 3: NSFW topics. by
on 2023-03-11 01:29:58 UTC
Reply
(This should be the final part.)
This is not our highest priority, but I want to make sure it's on our radar.
There are some pages on the wiki that could be considered NSFW by their nature. Examples include (but are likely not limited to): Dubious Lube, The Mechanics, Not There, Kink, Smut, Incest, Rape, and basically anything else the Department of Bad Slash deal with on a daily basis.
Now, I'm firmly of the opinion that defining a term is never obscene. We should be allowed to discuss what smut is or what kinkfic is as long as we do it in a fairly bland (but still humorous!) way. We should also be allowed to state that there are stories that include these themes, and link to our parodic critiques of said stories. I am willing to die on this hill. If FANDOM are going to limit our discourse that much, then I say we should go elsewhere.
That said, we should at least make an attempt to tone down any pages that currently might stray into too much detail. Keep an eye out for anything you come across and edit accordingly. Ideally, we should end up not needing the NSFW category anymore, because zero pages on the wiki will be NSFW.
And the Dubious Lube page might not be salvageable at all. {= ( I think I could yoink it into Neshomeh's Archive, potentially... I find it amusing and I'm frickin' proud of the "What Can We Use?" section.
Anyway, let me know if you think there are other pages we might need to remove entirely. My radar for this sort of thing is admittedly not very sensitive these days, and it should really be a community decision anyway. {= )
~Neshomeh
-
Honestly the potential loss of the Dubious Lube page makes me sad... [might be straying into TMI] by
on 2023-03-11 22:21:57 UTC
Reply
I get why Fandom wants to trim things down to make them fit into their neat little censored boxes, but at the same time... oof. Like I said in my bracketed tag, I really do have the PPC to thank for a lot of my early sex ed, growing up in a super religious and conservative environment. I've got y'all to thank for explaining why certain things in badfic are bad anatomy, why consent matters so much and in what contexts that might look different, what to look out for in a relationship... and literally the entirety of what safe sex looks like. I didn't have a safe environment to learn about this stuff as a teenager, and having the PPC gave me the tools to at least go "this sounds sketchy, I should look this up to verify". I really cannot state enough how much of a boon that was to me.
And honestly it just makes me so sad to see this being reduced to a barebones definition of what's appropriate. Are there lines to be drawn there? Sure—but it varies from teen to teen, and short of monitoring your teen's internet access 24/7 you'll never be able to set "appropriate" boundaries... which will again differ from person to person.
It's a whole mess with no easy cut and dry answers. But trying to censor everything pertaining to sexuality isn't it.
-Iximaz, rambling a little, but sad this is what things have come to
-
Right with you. by
on 2023-03-12 05:45:01 UTC
Reply
I was fortunate enough to have decent sex-ed in my home, but for me, the PPC helped my baby ace brain learn to stop being horribly negative about sexual relationships as a subject of fiction. I have some deeply embarrassing comments about slash 'ships buried in FF.net reviews. ^_^; Not due to homophobia, but general sex-phobia. The Department of Bad Slash taught me there is such a thing as good slash, and by extension good 'ship fic in general.
Baby ace me was definitely scandalized by sexual topics, but without being exposed to that sort of thing, I'd never have grown to have a more tolerant and eventually positive attitude toward other people's sexuality. Or my own, for that matter—a Boarder was the first person to tell me asexuality is a thing.
So yeah, I really don't think it's the Internet's job to censor itself """for the children.""" I think it's society's job (parents, schools, and churches alike) to provide children with a quality sex-education so they can make informed decisions to keep themselves safe and healthy. And if that fails, as it sadly often does, then a free and open Internet is crucial for those kids who won't get the facts any other way.
However, since Fandom does have the right to make its own rules about what it will allow on its platform... le sigh.
Semi-tangent: I've been thinking about the Citrus Scale lately. It's one of our most visited pages, and IIRC, it came about due to similar censorship rules. We can certainly fall back on it now, and to me it feels a bit like getting in touch with part of real fandom's roots. Just goes to show that
lifefans will always find a way.~Neshomeh
-
I would absolutely be in favor of preserving the Dubious Lube article by
on 2023-03-11 05:17:27 UTC
Reply
I agree that it's hilarious, and the suggestion on plausible alternatives is quite interesting. Historical fun facts woo! I might ask- would it be plausible to link your archive on the wiki? I haven't been on the Board in some time, and I didn't actually know about the archive.
-
Just throwing another option out for Dubious Lube: by
on 2023-03-11 14:42:23 UTC
Reply
Sometimes, two or more people choose to "mop the floor" together. It's perfectly normal and natural for consenting adults to "mop the floor" together. However, it's important to choose the proper "cleaning solution" when "mopping the floor" with others, to ensure everyone is safe and comfortable while "mopping." "Mops" are rather delicate instruments, as is the "floor." It's best to avoid damage to the "mop" and the "floor," as they are both notoriously difficult to replace.
And then we can basically keep the remaining explanations and lists the same, just changing some words. For example, that first description becomes:
Lubricants can be dubious for several different reasons. The most important reason for a lubricant to be deemed dubious is that it would not, in fact, function (or function efficiently for the speed at which "mopping the floor improperly" usually occurs) as a lubricant.And uh, yeah. Let's see FANDOM get all worked up over "mopping floors!"
—doctorlit isn't sure whether he's insulting mops or "mops" more by this comparison
-
I'm on board! by
on 2023-03-12 04:58:58 UTC
Reply
Come to think of it, there are plenty of things that need lubrication to function well. Wheel axles, hinges, all sorts of machine parts, the proverbial greased pig... {= D
~Neshomeh
-
It... already is? by
on 2023-03-11 05:46:07 UTC
Reply
Neshomeh's Archive (my personal PPC site) is linked from my user page, all my agents' pages, anywhere else my missions are referenced... If you mean I should make a wiki article for it... I suppose I should. There are just so many other things higher on my to-do list.
There's also PPC: The Lost Tales (which I administer). It has its own article already. If you've read the Original Series, you've been there before. {= )
~Neshomeh
-
Ah, my mistake by
on 2023-03-11 05:52:37 UTC
Reply
It didn't occur to me that that would be on the user page, for some reason. Welp, thanks for letting me know! I do think the archive having its own page would make sense for easier searchability but I also completely understand that being a low priority, both in terms of life and in terms of the current doings.
-
I have gone through the Unclaimed Badfic list to remove FANDOM-unfriendly links. by
on 2023-03-10 18:17:08 UTC
Edited
Reply
I'm worried that I just cut it in half.
-Ls
Edit: I went through the Unclaimed list, goshdangit! Doesn't mean I'm not working my way through Claimed too.
-
NSFW badfics could be put on a gdoc. by
on 2023-03-10 23:24:50 UTC
Reply
If NSFW content can't be linked in FANDOM, perhaps they could be placed on a publically editable gdoc, then posted and pinned on the Discord server. That way, people can post or claim them without having to deal with FANDOM's TOS.
-
I... was just removing easily gotten rid of rule-breaking content. by
on 2023-03-10 23:51:43 UTC
Reply
That... could work, but I'm assuming Nesh will have put much more thought into this than either of us. (insert smiley emoticon here)
And besides, it's not just badfics. Some PPC fics are NSFW too--and going through all the Killed Badfic lists will be a hecka work.
But, as Nesh has pointed out before in this thread, gdocs has significant limitations--it's much harder to allow good-faith edits while also allowing reverting bad-faith edits.
-Ls
-
Let's leave links to missions alone for now. by
on 2023-03-11 00:36:59 UTC
Reply
Even the NSFW ones. None of them are actually porn, unlike the fics they spork, so we've got more of a leg to stand on there. Anyway, if FANDOM come down on us for doing the primary function of the wiki, then we really should just pick up our toys and find a more welcoming sandbox.
Snipping the explicit badfics was a good idea, though. Cheers!
I don't think we need to worry about an alternative listing for M+ badfics at this time. We got on without a Claimed list before, we can do it again. Especially since we're less active these days and the number of people who want to tackle M+ fics in the first place is small.
~Neshomeh
-
To clarify: by
on 2023-03-11 00:55:20 UTC
Reply
I went over the Unclaimed list (despite what my post said originally) and removed explicit works. I'm also currently trying to go over some of the Claimed badfics, both to get rid of NSFW links and old claims.
Are you suggesting we do away the Claimed list entirely? Because honestly... that's not a bad idea. Most of the currently active authors don't seem to use it. The most use it has is preventing some newbie who doesn't know better from missioning My Immortal or Subjugation, or any other well-known fic out of ignorance.
What do you propose we do with all those Killed Badfic links that actually are to fics FANDOM could reasonably object to? Just delete outright?
-Ls
-
I vouch for keeping both, only removing outdated claims by
on 2023-03-11 13:47:05 UTC
Reply
I think of the unclaimed list as a wishlist for those who want to see a fic missioned but either don't want to write a mission themselves or can't (not having Permission etc.)
-
Clarification: Not what I was suggesting. by
on 2023-03-11 04:34:34 UTC
Reply
I personally wouldn't mind entirely doing away with the Claimed list, or the Unclaimed list, either—but that's a discussion for another day. (Maybe another month.) Ideally, we should vote about it.
Right now, for Killed Badfic, I reckon we can un-link all badfics, but retain their titles and attributes. Also add an attribute for what site it is (or was) hosted on if we can.
Example:
- "The Joker's Destini" - Fanfiction.net - M rated.
Missions usually contain links to their subjects, anyway.
~Neshomeh
-
That sounds good; it'll certainly accomplish the "no direct links" rule. (nm) by
on 2023-03-14 03:10:49 UTC
Reply
-
That is a very good idea. (nm) by
on 2023-03-11 16:38:57 UTC
Reply
-
And also put it on the Board header, perhaps? by
on 2023-03-10 23:33:41 UTC
Reply
For folks who don't use Discord like me.
-
What Now? Part 2: Pages about community members. by
on 2023-03-09 17:10:58 UTC
Reply
We're not allowed to have pages about "non-notable living people," i.e. anyone who isn't a public figure. Sadly, that includes Jay, Acacia, Miss Cam, Meir Brin, and several other good and worthy folks who currently have wiki pages celebrating their contributions to our community.
This one makes me angry. Last night, I went through and marked all such pages, and I was near crying at having to lose some of them. Bjam! Leto Haven! NenyaQuende! {= (
There is good news:
- Due to our tendency to have characters named after ourselves, some of these pages can be rewritten to focus on the fictional version of the person. Per hS's suggestion, it might even be acceptable to retain a short section about the character's namesake, so long as the page isn't "about" a real person.
- Others actually have User pages, too, which are allowed and are freely editable, so we can relocate biographical content to existing User pages when possible.
- We always have the option to make new pages about a person's works or events they were involved in.
So here's the plan:
In the categories for Candidates for Deletion and Articles That Need Work, you'll find Boarder pages I've labeled with one template or the other. (You'll also find some other stuff, like a bunch of unused images I haven't gotten around to deleting because I don't like doing it, but let's focus on the task at hand. ^_^; ) The template will include a brief on which of the above actions to take with that page.
If people will kindly volunteer to take one or two, and let me know when you've done what's in the brief, then I can take the final step of deleting anything that needs deleting.
Let me know if you have questions.
We might also consider creating an off-site Who's Who, but it's heckin' dicey to do that sort of thing in a non-freely-editable OR non-protectable space. FANDOM was nice because it allowed both equity for good-faith additions and recourse for bad-faith additions. I don't know how I feel about attempting a new PPC Directory-type thing on, e.g., Gdocs, which is less good at both of those things. Still less an individually operated site like mine or hS's.Fanlore allows pages about fans, though. That's another option. I dislike it only because it's not "PPC space," and it feels skeevier to me to write about our people outside our own community-centric space. IDK.
~Neshomeh
-
Extremely tangential question, but uh . . . by
on 2023-03-28 04:26:38 UTC
Reply
I'm in the midst of switching "Kippur" to "User:Kippur," but while doing so, I noticed the glossary is currently attributing Agent Taboo as a Kippur character. That doesn't sound right, does it? When I was doing that big edit spree tracking down all Kippur's PPC stories years ago, I don't recall seeing Taboo get mentioned anywhere on Kippur's many, many, MANY websites. But I'm also very ready for bed, and can't look into it further at the moment. Can anyone confirm a known author for Taboo?
—doctorlit doesn't have time to write a joke in this signature
-
Huh. I'm not sure. by
on 2023-03-28 05:16:00 UTC
Reply
The one mission Taboo appears in is a co-write between Deepy (Agent Dee) and Kippur (Agent Alec), and in the authors' note they say, "we don’t even own Taboo (who belongs to herself)."
I don't know whether that means Taboo was someone else's namesake character they borrowed, or an NPC they made up.
Either way, I've cribbed her for a mission with Ilraen, though. That Farscape fic I ranted about last year. >.>
~Neshomeh, like Rygel, doesn't tell jokes. (Watch to 3:47. ^_~ )
-
Waaaaaait, what? by
on 2023-03-28 08:05:23 UTC
Reply
That's a three-agent mission with Dee (Deepy), Milask (Leto), and Taboo (... kippur?). Alec ain't in it. If you've got anything that states kippur as a cowriter, then she has to be Taboo. In any case, she must be someone, and I don't believe we've ever had anyone by that name.
I've glanced through the Geocities site (including its guestbook) and Misssandman.com, and I can't find anything linking this story to kippur. Any ideas?
hS
-
Whoops. ^_^; by
on 2023-03-28 15:17:55 UTC
Reply
I, uh, got "By Those He Trusted" mixed up with "Son of...", which DOES feature Alec (but still doesn't credit Kippur {I will fix that on Lost Tales eventually}).
I guess it's possible that Calista did the same thing when she made Taboo's wiki page, before it was a redirect...?
I checked over the Geocities site and couldn't find anything, either. I don't REMEMBER anyone named Taboo, but if she's not a complete invention, it's always possible she was someone who hung around only briefly, or knew Deepy or Leto from somewhere else.
~Neshomeh's brain might still be slightly borked.
-
Six Degrees of Jay Thorntree by
on 2023-03-10 15:55:46 UTC
Reply
I hadn't realised until working on her article that Thalia Weaver had cowritten part of TOS. For a moment I thought that Jay might literally had designated her three cowriters as the original PGs (Bast coming in from Taken Far Too Literally's last chapters), but she had a couple of others too - the authors of agents Dee and Rhysdux. At least one of her cowriters, Thals, had her own cowritten spinoff, which got me thinking... is it possible to play Six Degrees of Jay Thorntree? Can we trace a path of 'X cowrote with Y' from any current PPCer back to the creators themselves?
I am happy to report that we can! My own chain is actually quite short!
Jay cowrote TOS24: A Taste of Blood with Deepy
Deepy cowrote Dee & Milask 3: Son of... with kippur (Alec's author; Nesh, this page could stand to be updated)
kippur cowrote Brown DragonRider of Pern with Huinesoron
By Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon rules, Jay's Thorntree Number is 0, so mine would be 3. Pretty good going!
I'm a tolerable hub for cowriters, particularly if we allow ourselves to count compiled RPs as mass cowrites: WikDiv PPC Edition has 14 or so writers, though a couple aren't credited (Tomash and Bookworm heckled Tash in issue 10), and I've been in others. You can probably hit other RPs through Neshomeh (the other cowriter on "Brown DragonRider"), or through Leto Haven (Deepy's cowriter on their spinoff, ran the 2009 Memorial RP). If we don't allow RPs, I'm largely a dead end, but Nesh has done more cowriting than me.
I wonder if there's any other routes back to Jay other than through Deepy? I've been looking, but most chains seem to taper off. Jay > Thalia > Mercuria works by way of OFUCI, but Araeph's visit there wasn't a cowrite. I'm treating everything in the PPC setting as counting, so OFUs are a valid approach, but I haven't run into a useful link yet.
Anyway, if you've done cowrites, post your Degrees of Jay Thorntree! I'd like to think we can get everyone back to her with a bit of work, though may not in under six.
hS
-
I... dunno. by
on 2023-03-10 16:56:00 UTC
Edited
Reply
I have that (still not finished) cowrite with Ki No Shirayuki, though I'm not sure if Yuki's done many other cowrites. I don't think... Ekwy's massive interlude with Mina counts as a cowrite. I have been in a few RPs, though. Let's see...
*The World Without Suvians thing.
*That one National Holidays RP with Meta
*Philharmonic of the Plot Continuum, before I had Permission
*That Plort RP with Bookworm that didn't really feature any of my agents
*That Sue-off thing, also not having any of my agents
...I'm pretty sure the last two definitely don't count, but...the others? I'm not sure.
-Ls
Edit: Sorry for the mini, Ekwy.
-
Also Agent Dead, a.k.a. Miss Cam! by
on 2023-03-10 16:53:15 UTC
Reply
I don't know if that helps for Six Degrees, though, unless you want to count OFUM as a massive co-write. >.>
There's also the cameo Agents Jay and Dead had in JAAKSONS 2, "Dark of the Moon," which was presumably at least done with Jay's and Cam's express permission?
And I think Nenya and/or Rosie co-wrote with Araeph once or twice, and were involved in the Sue Support Group, and—ooh, does contributing to the Handbook count? That would additionally loop in Artemis and anyone who made their own Basic Charge List.
~Neshomeh
-
So playing around with this... by
on 2023-03-10 17:06:15 UTC
Reply
... I found a node graph editor which lets you share a link to it. So:
Six Degrees of Jay Thorntree, a partial graph/proof of concept. For the RPs I've mostly put on the people who I think are cowrite hubs themselves. RPs are marked by blue lines; a "proper" cowrite takes precedence.
Sadly, agreeing to an appearance does not count - I would say something is only cowritten if both writers penned actual narrative. There's a grey area for "here's that scene/those lines you asked for"; I'm inclined against counting that, but it's really hard to spot, soooo...
hS
-
Different Six Degrees link by
on 2023-03-11 18:48:27 UTC
Reply
The Edotor link is just confusing everyone, so let's do this instead:
Six Degrees of Jay Thorntree, an editable Google Doc. Add yourself, copy it to the Edotor, and generate your own new image on the fly. (The image at the top of the doc will not update unless you paste a new one in.)
I'm gonna go add a few RPs just for kicks. If we decide to keep this, we probably want to find a way to list sources.
hS
-
Still playing Six Degrees. by
on 2023-03-11 22:15:44 UTC
Reply
The highest Thorntree Number I've found so far is seven, ironically enough for early PG and prolific writer Araeph! She has crossovers with a bunch of characters (the DTE visit Thals and Merc at OFUCI, they hang out with Techno-Dann and Quen), but her only actual cowrite seems to have been with Rose C. Bomull. Who otherwise only cowrote with Nenya... who (I think) cowrote with Vemi once. So:
Jay > Deepy > kippur > Huinesoron > Vemi > Nenya > Rosie > Araeph makes 7.
I have managed to find a non-Deepy route back from the present PPC to Jay - Rhysdux cowrote with Jay and HonorH, HonorH cowrote with kippur - but it's a step longer. Leto Haven ran an RP once though, so at least not all routes run through me and Nesh. Still hoping for a long-lost Thals or Cam cowrite to emerge...
hS
-
Six Degrees of Amusement by
on 2023-03-13 11:15:14 UTC
Reply
The graph at the top is a bit out of date at time of posting (computer won't download the new version), but it gives the right effect: a big blob of RP blue, with a halo of cowrite black around it. So you'd assume that if you took the RPs out, the whole thing would become a splintered mess with lots of separate subgraphs, right?
Astonishingly, it doesn't!
The only cowriters who aren't (currently!) linked into the graph are Linstar and Kі nо Shirayuki - everyone else is tied into the network. There's a lot fewer people on the network, because a whole bunch of people are only in through RPs.
In keeping with the original Six Degrees theory, the only person with a Thorntree Number higher than 6 is still Araeph, who just... didn't cowrite apparently? I've also checked IndeMaat today, who also... didn't cowrite? But the whole cluster around Iximaz, Skarm, and Voyd shows how a couple of prolific cowriters can really pull the plot together.
I'm continuing to expand the list, because... I'm still having fun. ^_^ And it's nice to see what an interconnected bunch
of reprobateswe still are.hS
-
There's a link missing here! by
on 2023-03-14 14:38:53 UTC
Reply
Firemagic cowrote with me - quite a few times, actually! Two missions, one of which was releaves as a tw-parter, and an interlude. And I might be forgetting something else.
-
Always the graph keeps growing. by
on 2023-03-14 16:51:16 UTC
Reply
It's unreadable now in any reasonable size, but you can open the no-RP version here on Imgur. Sergio, you're right in the centre! I found a cowrite with you and Astral Void too, so you're a respectable little node.
There are still some very unexpected people stuck out in little clusters by themselves. I would have thought Laburnum and Trojie would be right in the middle, but apparently neither of them cowrote much at all. Even on the full version with RPs, Saphie and Meir Brin form a little island with a couple of friends, not linked into anything. It's very strange indeed.
If you - any you - have cowriters or RPs to add, this is the link. Only situations where both writers had an opportunity to react to each other go on - submitting an article to the Multiverse Monitor doesn't count. "RP" generally implies an open RP on the Board or Chat, and must have been published elsewhere afterwards.
hS
-
It is quite weird that I'm apparently the only link Astal Void has. (nm) by
on 2023-03-16 15:30:20 UTC
Reply
-
It's all a little vague. by
on 2023-03-16 16:24:46 UTC
Reply
I think we've got most of the published RPs now, and all of the big-name character journals. But cowrites? I've mostly just followed chains of cowriters around. The most obvious example of that is Miah - Bryn - Maslab - firemagic, forming a big square on the graph where you can see me just jumping through agent pages to find cowrites.
At a quick look, Astral Void's main agent had five main appearances: three solo written, one cowrite with you, and one the Hallowe'en Cowrite. I'm excluding that because what we actually did was all post separate stories; it's more like an anthology.
Then there's the MSTs, and I don't know about that. Agent Ally did an MST with Laburnum, which is the name of a PPC agent written by the MST co-author Laburnum. It takes place in the PPC MST Theatre. But... Laburnum also talks about her other username, and seems to be implying that she hangs out with canon characters. So is this Agent Laburnum being weird, or Author Laburnum in an OOC RP space?
For the moment, I'm ignoring MSTs wholesale, which means yes, you seem to be Astral Void's only link to the graph.
hS
-
Still growing! by
on 2023-03-15 11:14:42 UTC
Reply
We're still finding more RPs and cowrites. This morning I've finally found something to link Araeph into the cluster, rather than having her way out on the end of a dubious chain; and I'm considering how to deal with character journals, which might need their own colour. The full version of the graph is here; every shortest chain still runs through Deepy, though with a couple of RPs in place you might find your path goes through either Leto or kippur to get there. I think Specs is still the furthest from Jay.
hS
-
Yep, still expanding. by
on 2023-03-16 12:22:47 UTC
Reply
The document is here, the Imgur version of the current full file is here. It's a huge daft blob of PPCers!
I've taken some time to draw the Thorntree Number Contours onto the plot, here. Now you can see your own number at a glance! There are only five people with a Thorntree Number greater than 6 - four on 7, and Specs still out by himself on 8. Poor Specs. :(
Apologies for the terrifying shape of the 3-4 boundary: the Journal and RP zones are pretty randomly divided between those who journalled with kippur/RP'd with Leto and those who didn't.
hS
-
I'm faintly pleased and also disturbed... by
on 2023-03-16 16:51:47 UTC
Reply
... to see myself as the spider at the center of the web. {X D
Actually, the whole thing looks a bit spider-shaped at the moment. Funny!
~Neshomeh
-
I kinda want to use it as a star map. by
on 2023-03-17 11:53:27 UTC
Reply
You've got three different polities - the cohesive Red and Blue, with Black split in two and only held together by treaty-passages through systems like Neshomeh and Huinesoron. Red and Blue are in conflict, with a handful of battlefields along the front lines - the Huinesoron-Delta front, Oracle, Araeph. Black is more of a commercial power, trying to hold it together while the galaxy goes to pot. Some systems are massive hubs of warp lanes; others are trapped out on the edge of things. There's even some Black systems that have been completely blockaded - Red no longer permit access to Ekwy and Milano, after Black helped Blue drive them out of Neshomeh.
...
Captain's Log, stardate... seven. The long run through the Bryn-Maslab Quadrangle always gets the crew's spirits down; it is so empty out there, with nothing but the distant gleam of the Harpy redoubt Novastorme to light our way. Our arrival at Miah was cause for hot anticipation, but the reception we received was muted at best. The Harpy-Gernell war is stirring up again, and Miah has been a Harpy system for many years. The populace are bunkering down against the red tide, and had little time for trading.
Things are somewhat better here in Caddy-Shack, where there is only a light blue presence. I have been able to send the crew groundside on shore leave, and fully expect a spate of bleepka-induced amnesia incidents when they return. For myself, I am studying my charts, and wishing once again for a direct route from Caddy-Shack to galactic north. But all warp-lanes here point south, with the primary axis being the triple highway to Miah, Pretzel, and the Guvnorate of Space.
What's that? Computer, accept message. Hmm. I... no. What? No, they can't. We're supposed to be going home, we...
Resume log. I have just received orders from Thorntree itself. How they got here I don't know - the shortest route follows the triple highway and then cuts through Neshomeh to reach kippur, but that lane is now a front line in the war. I almost wish the courier had been set upon, cut down by Gernell bandits or Harpy raiders. Anything other than what lurks beneath that official Koright seal...
We have been ordered to Huinesoron, the flashpoint of the most recent war. The Powers That Be have decreed that the conflict is an opportunity: while we would never violate the Gernell sanctions on the Huinesoron-Ekwy lane, there is always a chance to discover new warp lanes. We are to explore the nearby systems, Vemi and bjam and Fawkes, searching for any route to Ekwy and Milano, or long-lost Teena and WyldeHorse. It will take us deep into red territory, and there is no knowing when we will return.
It is a noble endeavour. I made the run to Milano once - the people there are good Koright citizens, they do not deserve to be cut off like this. But I wish to Legal it had fallen to anyone but me.
I must get to work. My orders are to stay as far from both the Harpies and Gernell as possible, so the direct route through Neshomeh is out. I only hope I can plot us a course that doesn't lead right back around the Maslab-Bryn Quadrant in reverse...
~
(You could also use red and blue as literal star colours, with black representing standard yellow stars. But that doesn't produce such an immediate story.)
hS
-
Ooh, that's fun. ^_^ by
on 2023-03-18 02:32:39 UTC
Reply
Even though it's not strictly applicable, I just have to say:
PLOOOOOORT!IIIIIIIINNNNNNN!
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!
I do hope we find a route to Ekwy and Milano, though. It doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility! {= D~Neshomeh
-
Spider-Nesh, Spider-Nesh, she can cowrite anything a spider can! by
on 2023-03-16 17:27:46 UTC
Reply
...Actually, much more than a spider can.
-Ls
-
Depends on the spider. by
on 2023-03-16 18:48:11 UTC
Reply
Charlotte's Web, anyone? I loved the animated film as a kid—but I especially loved listening to the audiobook, performed by E.B. White himself, at bedtime. He has such a rich, mellow voice. You can hear a remastered sample here. {= )
Anyway, I actually think I'm in the middle of the chart because I've dabbled in a bit of everything, with multiple generations of Boarders. It's a feature of longevity more than prolificacy.
~Neshomeh
-
Sudden thought: How does Multiverse Monitor stuff factor in? by
on 2023-03-13 12:10:12 UTC
Reply
Since that could technically count as co-writing, though at least for the NMM it was mostly me compiling everyone's articles...
-
I thought about that. by
on 2023-03-13 13:00:43 UTC
Edited
Reply
In the context of the old Monitor, to see if I could bring Starwind in.
I decided I couldn't. I feel a cowrite requires two writers to both be able to respond to the other's writings. Something like the Monitor is one way - you could add an editorial commenting on an article, but the article couldn't reflect your editorial. Similarly, I'm not counting the Halloween Cowrite years back, in which we all wrote our own stories and then strung them together afterwards.
Note the "be able to", though. If you're RPing together, you can reply to everyone even if you don't. So I'm saying that if you're in the same collected part of an RP, you cowrite even if you didn't actually interact.
It's all arbitrary, but it's hanging together so far.
(Cowritten articles would count, though!)
EDIT: After a few updates, we have a new longest chain: Jay > Deepy > kippur > Neshomeh > Iximaz > Voyd > Lilac_Lielac > KittyNoodles > SpecstacularSC = 8. Specs was closely linked to KittyNoodles, so it makes sense that he'd be out on the end; though if Lilac or Riese ever wrote with someone with a smaller Thorntree Number than 5 we could trim it down. Don't think I checked Riese yet.
(The no-RPs version is still alarmingly intact - just a couple of new closed loops on Trojie/Pads-Sedri, and Laburnum-kitsune106. Once again in Trojie's case, one of our most prolific writers never seems to have done cowrites.)
hS
-
Did Trojie not co-write with Sara? by
on 2023-03-14 05:40:43 UTC
Reply
... I phrase this as a question despite already having looked into it and finding no solid evidence that she did. Agent Trojie worked with Agent Zach Homewood, who originally belonged to Sara, for the original LxC mission, but I get the impression that Zach was loaned for the purpose. I'm not sure.
And I don't know if Sara ever co-wrote with anyone else, either.
There are more RP connections in that direction, though. I found a 2008 holiday party when searching for Zach.
There was definitely a whole thing between Cassie Young (who took over writing Zach), Ekyl, Rilwen, and some others, too, I recall. How much of it ever got written as stories, though, I'm not sure.
~Neshomeh
-
Sara wrote with Tawaki once. by
on 2023-03-14 16:53:41 UTC
Reply
So that would let her link Trojie and Pads into the main mass... except that I can't see any indication Sara was involved in the Zach mission. It reads much more like Trojie invented a character, then gifted him to Sara after.
I've also gotten very frustrated at Araeph for repeatedly borrowing people's characters. No! Cowrite with them! Why aren't you thinking of my graphs 15 years later?!
hS
-
Uh, SC and KittyNoodles are siblings. That's why they were close. (nm) by
on 2023-03-13 21:05:01 UTC
Reply
-
Hmmm, co-written articles? by
on 2023-03-13 13:21:44 UTC
Reply
That's definitely me and Zing with the Troupe By Any Other Name folks, then. And I think also firemagic on some of the NMM articles (thinking about the Spock interview, for example).
I guess it's kinda FOMO-inducing for me because I do have cowrites, even in the more traditional sense of the word! But they're all unpublished, haha.
-
Right??! by
on 2023-03-13 14:49:38 UTC
Reply
"I've got that one with Lily," I thought, "I'll put that in-- NOPE. Not completed, not published." It's not even just one, we've got at least two, three if you count the DAS-JIVE article. You cowrite constantly, but because things keep getting bogged down you only appear on the graph in RPs.
... no, you have one other cowrite: with Eileen Alphabet, who otherwise isn't on the table. But if the Troupe was you and Zing, then you can act as a bridge to bring her in! I've snuck you in. Huzzah!
hS
-
Added myself by
on 2023-03-11 17:43:40 UTC
Reply
I think that's five degrees for me?
-
As hS pointed out to me, it's not a live link. (nm) by
on 2023-03-11 18:00:54 UTC
Reply
-
Ooh, interesting. by
on 2023-03-10 19:10:08 UTC
Reply
Nesh and I have sort-of collaborated in RPs, and we are doing Heirs of Avalon with Zing, but that's technically non-PPC even if it uses three of our agents.
I guess it's kinda grey-area for me as a cowriter because my method of cowriting is more "I borrow your character and you edit their lines if I mess up", mostly because otherwise things get backburnered forever ;)
And now I'm trying to think about if I ever cowrote with Miss Cam and I guess the closest I've got is enabling her into things in MDZS fandom haha
-
I had calcolated I was in a four degree separation, with the link being through your chain. by
on 2023-03-10 17:49:12 UTC
Reply
And indeed it seems to be the case. It's kinda mindblowing that said link formed only recently through our cowrite of Apples & Oranges 3 - until then I had a fifth degree one through iximaz and then again the Huinesoron-to-Jay route, which again formed fairly late as I think was shortly before I first left (so we're talking after about 6-7 years of PPCing!)
Earlier than that, I would've have a debatable link (also fifth degree) through Lily Winterwood, as I lent her Sergio, Nikki and Corolla for the main Blackout story. However, I had no writing imput in it (though I wrote a companion story to that) so as I said that link is debatable at best.
In my other cowrites, I think I am actually the link, but I'm not going to break it down here as all three of them have long left the PPC (and one of them kinda sourly too)
-
I have added myself. Hope that's okay. -Ls (nm) by
on 2023-03-10 17:28:16 UTC
Reply
-
It's not a live link. ^_~ by
on 2023-03-10 20:59:49 UTC
Reply
The link I posted is actually stupidly long, because it includes the full text of the entire code for the graph. The only way you can add yourself is by getting a new link (I think it was at top right) and posting it yourself.
Please use HTML or Markup if you do that. I wasn't kidding about stupidly long.
hS
-
So if I count an RP with Bookworm... by
on 2023-03-10 17:11:34 UTC
Reply
...I have Five Degrees from Jay Thorntree, from Bookworm, Nesh/hS, kippur, Dee, and Jay.
Right?
-Ls
-
I am not sure what mine is, but I did participate in WikDiv, if that counts. by
on 2023-03-10 16:23:53 UTC
Reply
I also did a cowritten interlude with Hidany, so that might count for something. Has Hidany done any other cowrites?
-
I'll do Miss Cam and Evil Bob. (nm) by
on 2023-03-09 20:05:18 UTC
Reply
-
Aw, I wanted Miss Cam :'( by
on 2023-03-09 23:36:02 UTC
Reply
She's one of my oldest fandom friends. But if you've already got to the page then that's fine.
I might also be able to get Leto Haven, since he's my PG. Maybe Meir Brin, too?
-
I'll tackle bjam and Al's Waiter. by
on 2023-03-09 23:00:58 UTC
Edited
Reply
Bjam was one of my best friends, and I've adopted both her character and AW's. I might tackle Bast as well - Pretty sure all her appearances are under my aegis at this point.
EDIT: And Thals, on my wife's behalf. This is how we remember our friends.
hS
- Hail the Grey Lady, and may her Most Holy Hat be kept spiffy-looking. by on 2023-03-24 15:02:36 UTC Reply
- As is Evil Bob's page. by on 2023-03-24 16:15:21 UTC Reply
-
Thanks for staying on this, folks! by
on 2023-03-26 22:39:07 UTC
Reply
I'm afraid I haven't been very active myself—I'm still working on recovering my work/life routines after my illness. I'm getting there, though.
I did a bit of proofreading and some work on the "Ring Child" article today. The "Suvian Encounter" content is leftover from the original "Archir the Emerald" article, which Yuki helpfully converted. I've added Context and Mission bits, following hS's example. I still intend to transform the Charges section as I suggested elsewhere.
~Neshomeh
-
Actually the Members List for her temple is really useful. by
on 2023-03-24 15:12:12 UTC
Reply
It establishes a whole swathe of Boarder names as existing in HQ. Notably Andy and Saphie, but also BeautyID (who wrote the poem at the top of our Constitution) and a couple of others. If there are real people we want to legitimately name on the Wiki, the list lets us do it.
hS
-
Thals is first-pass done. by
on 2023-03-10 11:21:37 UTC
Reply
Thalia Weaver. Like with Agent Kaitlyn, I take the view that any and all characters by/inspired by the same author, with the same name, are the same person unless there is a strong reason to believe otherwise. So Thalia Weaver of OFUM == Thalia of the DCPS == Thalia partner to Shada == Miss Thalia of OFUCI. It means they bounce around a bit, but they were early-aughts kids, they pretty much did.
I still have to trawl through OFUM and track down her appearances there. I think the Namesake section should be acceptable? I've tried to keep it brief and stick to the pertinent details (wrote Rhus, PG, gone now).
hS
-
Looks good! by
on 2023-03-10 16:34:26 UTC
Reply
(Thalia was thirteen? Dang. I don't think I knew that!)
Agreed on characters sharing a name and author being the same person unless otherwise indicated.
Namesake section seems fine to me. I think putting it below Appearances but above References makes sense, too.
One note: World One as continuum of origin rather than Real World. Real!Thalia is from the Real World, and the page isn't about her. {= )
~Neshomeh
-
Quick clarification: by
on 2023-03-10 16:41:02 UTC
Reply
All Characters Are One is just my personal method of dealing with characters I have control over. I've adopted Thalia by including her in "By Any Other Name". I'm not going to advocate it for characters I have no stake in, though I think it's usually worthwhile. (Huinesoron, by the way, is an exception: Agent Huinesoron =/= Dr. Huinesoron of OFUDisc, though the latter is the Huinesoron from Pancakes!)
Author Thals gives her age as 13 on the shared profile for her DMS spinoff. I'm treating that as true for the character, and have written her that way when I did so.
hS
-
I am actually quite bad on that "characters with the same name" front XD by
on 2023-03-10 18:01:46 UTC
Reply
As I mentioendi n the past, Agent!Sergio Turbo was actually the second such named character I created,.. and on top of that he's considered the third Turbo ,as I decided to consider a superhero character I had created in kindergarten/first grade (named very originally Super Sergio) the "first Turbo"
I have a fourth (recruited in Keiko's spinoff and renamed Shiro Turbo) and a fifth (from a Bakugai Kyoudai Let's & Go!! fanfiction I started and dropped after a single chapter) from my old shames time as well, and I have effectively created a sixth and seventh through The World Without Authors and its related Mai Dire Fine reboot The Story That Never Ended. Although, since Kath's Timeline!Sergio and TSTNE!Sergio are straight-up alternates of "Third Turbo", I'm not considering him sixth and seventh but 3.1 and 3.2 instead.
Which makes the various incarnations of Sergej Speed, Sergio's evil clone, 3C, 3.1C and 3.2C. I'm gonna need a graph for this... And a character dictionary for TWWA ASAP.
-
Oh, right, I was forgetting about the one who is a canon character, too! by
on 2023-03-10 22:08:50 UTC
Reply
Yeah, you read that right. There a non-numbered version of my namesake PPC Agent who is a character in formally published media.
In World In Danger, a 2.5D indie retro shooter from 2017 whose developer happens to be a friend of mine and I provided some feedback and beta testing for the game (including a concept idea for the mecha that acts as the final boss) As such, I was offered the chance to be a "guest character" of sorts, and of course I asked for said character to be patterned after my old self-insert and later PPC agent.
I later gave the main four character of game a cameo in Black Sprite, to make the cameo mutual.
So, yeah. While WID!Sergio does have only a handful of flavor lines he says if talked with in free-roaming mode, he is a playable character in the "extended roster" secondary lineup. Pretty neat, right?
-
I think we'll be okay. by
on 2023-03-09 19:07:36 UTC
Reply
Acacia, AW, bjam, Evil Bob, Jay, Nenya, Rosie, Thalia, and Twiggy all exist in the PPCverse under something very close to their own names. Artemis, Gundamkiwi, and P@L are the only ones who don't, though Agent Gunny possibly counts enough for a "Namesake" section.
P@L could probably be addressed by a reference/footnote on her eight or so references, just linking to the Oddlots archive. Artemis I admit I don't know what to do with, but she actually has no unique info on her page - just back-references to BRD and Flaming Denethor.
So yes, we'll be okay.
hS
-
Never mind, didn't recognize an acronym. by
on 2023-03-09 20:15:01 UTC
Edited
Reply
-
What Now? Part 1: What to do about the Legendaries? by
on 2023-03-09 15:35:59 UTC
Reply
Here's the problem: FANDOM's Terms of Use state that a user may not:
Post, link or transmit any written, visual, or symbolic content that is obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, profane
Emphasis added. Strictly speaking, we're not even allowed to have links to anything of an NC-17 nature. {= /
This is obviously bullshit, but it's bullshit that could get pages deleted by staff if anyone really gets in a snit about it, like they have with "Celebrian" and "Rose Potter." Especially if it involves a character who is technically underage or, gasp, a scary, scary sex act like anal penetration. (One could make the case that objecting to the mention of anal and kinks in general is discriminatory as hell, but I don't think that's a fight we can win with a US-based company.) Since that describes most if not all the Legendaries, we had better take matters into our own hands before FANDOM get the chance.
I propose:
- For Legendaries that have missions, revise the page to be about the mission. (We were already taking steps to replace Sue pages with mission pages; this is an extension of the same idea.)
- For Legendaries that don't have missions, delete the page.
- For the Legendary Badfic page, revise to include BRIEF descriptions of the fics, being as coy as if you were speaking with a particularly delicate six-year-old in the room.
- Where there are links that shouldn't link to a mission page, link to another, non-FANDOM resource, ideally Fanlore. If content is missing from Fanlore, consider adding it if it's important to you.
- For dramatic readings by PPC members, maybe hS has a place to link them from his site, if he's willing?
I hope that any authors of missions to Legendaries who are still around will step up to rewrite the pages they're connected to. For instance, I'll handle "Blood Raining Night" and "Subjugation."
For the rest, I hope other community members will volunteer to take a page or two. (For Sue pages, too, while we're at it!)
While it sucks to lose content and be restricted from discussing a traditional aspect of our community culture on FANDOM, and we're within our rights to be angry about it on principle, we should bear in mind that Legendary Badfic is far from the most important part of the wiki or of our community. Our own and each other's characters and stories should always be our main focus.
~Neshomeh
-
A lot of the Bleepfic also falls under this. by
on 2023-03-11 16:43:34 UTC
Reply
Speaking of Bleepfic, I think THE RIGHT MATE AT THE RIGHT TIME page should just be deleted. The mission mostly focuses on the horrible pacing and with good reason, but part of why I made that page in the first place was that a lot of hilarious nonsense happens after the mission ends. I'm open to suggestions.
On another note: That Series is long, spanning several missions by different authors. I'm up for reading through them again, but I'd like some help with it. Is anyone else up for reading a lot of missions into horrible yiff over the next however long and summarizing it for posterity? I know I just made it sound like an irresistible opportunity. XD
-
Re. That Series, it's okay to keep it simple for now. by
on 2023-03-12 05:21:54 UTC
Reply
Since the page already lists the missions in order, just keep the "Missions" H2 and cut the "Quotes" and "That Series In Order" H2s. With a rewrite of the lede and change of categories, it'll function. Brief episode summaries and more publication info can be added as you/others have time. I imagine it'll end up looking like one of the existing series pages in the end.
Anything you do to get the ball rolling is appreciated!
Re. "The Right Mate," I reckon that's for you and Ix to decide.
~Neshomeh
-
I'll at least take care of "Agony in Pink," since July isn't here anymore. by
on 2023-03-09 20:36:16 UTC
Reply
(As well as anything else I can find the time for.)
I'm positive I have a folder of dramatic reading audio at home, but I'm at work right now. I'll have to check later . . .
doctorlit is flossing, and isn't going to code the emdash today
-
Ah, I see why I thought there were more dramatic readings than there actually are. by
on 2023-03-10 12:29:07 UTC
Reply
I have a folder for readings, but some of them are readings of missions, not badfics, plus Scapegrace's PPCitation Needed episodes.
So the actual dramatic badfic readings are My immortal, "Blood Raining Night," and Ziggy Mercuria Stardust reading "To Torment an Elf," which is her own old shame, and probably doesn't need to be rehosted. (I can't even find where I got the link in the first place, anymore . . .)
—doctorlit made the mistake of talking to a nicotine-addicted coworker outdoors near the end of her shift yesterday, and his esophagus is paying for the smoke inhalation this morning
-
I've already gone over Agony in Pink. by
on 2023-03-09 20:39:58 UTC
Reply
You can still check it yourself, of course.
-Ls
-
I also went over My Immortal. by
on 2023-03-09 20:48:06 UTC
Reply
If Ix or someone else wants to go over my changes there too, please feel free to do so.
-Ls
-
Er, did you read my above proposal for the Legendary Badfic pages? by
on 2023-03-09 21:31:59 UTC
Reply
'Cause what I'm saying at this time is actually "Let's not have them anymore." Instead, let's have pages about missions where possible and links to Fanlore (a non-Fandom wiki) otherwise.
Changing the language on the pages is good as a stop-gap until we get around to rewriting stuff, which is gonna take time.
Ultimately, though, I think Fanlore is the safer place for information about the fics themselves, and linking to Fanlore is safer than linking directly to fics that could be construed as "pornographic" and whatever else they can smack us for. All the info we currently have on our wiki can be moved over so we won't lose the discourse or the collection of links entirely.
This all goes for any Bleepfics that might be hanging around, too, incidentally.
~Neshomeh
-
Do you have any examples of a "mission page"? by
on 2023-03-10 14:06:40 UTC
Reply
You've said we're already working on swapping Suvian pages out for mission ones; are there any good examples I can use as a model for legolas by laura and Celebrian?
Also, how are we titling these? Should the latter be at [[Celebrian]], [[Tales from DOGA: Celebrian]], [[Tales from DOGA/Celebrian]], [[Celebrian (PPC mission)]], or what? (Note that the spinoff it's part of is just [[Tales from DOGA]], with the fact that it's a spinoff being conveyed by the categories and text.)
hS
-
Okay, example mission page! by
on 2023-03-12 00:38:56 UTC
Reply
In place of Spidey3000, there is now "The Smasher."
Right now, it's got a lede, infobox, synopsis, and links. I might play around with a section for more info about the target/charges/assassination, like I suggested before, but I am out of brain juice for today. Synopsisisising is hard.
Infobox Mission template is here, if anyone wants to examine it. Absolutely open to suggestions about what to include/not include and in what order.
~Neshomeh
-
Trying a different, different approach. by
on 2023-04-03 05:48:54 UTC
Reply
Spent the whole week rereading "A Southern Californian in King Cailan's Court" and taking notes! And here are the results!
I took some elements from Nesh's edit of "The Smasher," and some from hS's edit of "legolas, by laura." I personally like the result, but I'm worried there's still a bit too much there, despite how much of the "character/badfic history" section I trimmed out. I'm very open to feedback, although I'm going to bed for the night in a moment. Tomorrow, I'll probably go through and do citations, and add Officer Goodfeel to the Glossary. (Don't think we can add Bendrick, since his name never got changed?) But my brain is very done for now.
—doctorlit, a central Arizonan courting the Wiki
-
Trying a different approach. by
on 2023-03-12 11:51:08 UTC
Reply
I know we've been talking about including longer synopses, but "The Smasher" feels like it's trying to replace the mission report itself. I've always supported the view that the Wiki should not replace reading the mission - it should include enough detail to let you know you're in the right place, and then let you read the source text. For instance, my page on Dafydd describes him and Constance as getting together "in the aftermath of the mass exorcism" - if you want to know how it happened, you need to follow the reference.
So. legolas by laura applies that philosophy to a mission page. I've added Context for stuff which isn't necessarily in the same mission (Dafydd's partnership situation, the one previous Legendary), and Trivia for out-of-universe stuff. I've also explicitly separated out the charge list, and just kept it as a blockquote; and in this case, given the low rating of the badfic, I've put a link in (along with the Fanlore one). The actual Mission section is two short paragraphs.
Is it too short? Maybe. I've actually skipped over the plot of the mission almost entirely, in favour of highlighting incidents that might be of use to another writer (eg, the CAD shutting down when it realises it's in a Legendary). But I don't think a multi-page summary is necessary when the story is right there.
~
On the infobox: is there a reason not to swap "Index" out for "Spinoff" or "Spin-off"? I feel like it's a useful catchall term, and lets people use it for spinoffs that don't have an index page at all (eg one posted on FFn).
hS
-
I mostly like that. by
on 2023-03-12 16:40:11 UTC
Reply
I agree, a mission page shouldn't be a substitute for reading the mission.
I think it should be a quick reference for the details. And that's why I don't love having the whole charge list as a block quote. ^_^; What about pulling the charges into a bulleted list, ideally with links to pages that discuss the charge in question? Maybe include a brief description of what the fic did to earn the charge, too. That way it's scanable.
I DO like the "Context" section—that can be an aide to people jumping in to read a noteworthy story even if they haven't read the rest of the spin-off. Great idea.
I also like highlighting incidents over giving a full plot breakdown. (My brain was not sure how to do that. Now that I've seen it done, I'll figure it out!)
I'd put "Trivia" above "Links." We probably don't want "here's how to leave the wiki" ahead of "here's more info you might want from the wiki."
Re. Index... yeah, all right. I think ultimately we might want it to link to a spin-off page on the wiki anyway, since so many (like the ones on Gdocs) don't have a dedicated main page of any kind.
~Neshomeh
-
Oh yeah, there's definite room for improvement. by
on 2023-03-12 16:58:33 UTC
Reply
I put this together with kids bouncing around in the background, so it's very much a rough go. I'll fiddle with the structure and the charge list when I get a chance/brain. I just wanted to get something in place. You're lucky the Mission section didn't come out as bullet points!
hS
-
Haha, fair enough! (nm) by
on 2023-03-12 17:26:53 UTC
Reply
-
My style of writing mission pages might be even shorter 🤣 (nm) by
on 2023-03-12 12:10:00 UTC
Reply
-
For the record, we won't make a page for every mission that exists. by
on 2023-03-12 16:13:59 UTC
Reply
Not necessarily at you, just want to get ahead of the inevitable impulse I know people tend to have.
There are way too many missions in existence to reasonably have pages for all of them, and most of them won't warrant any special attention anyway. Missions (and other PPC stories) that have pages to themselves should be notable for one reason or another—e.g., they deal with a Legendary, or their target was particularly interesting, or they represent a noteworthy moment in the spin-off's or the PPC's history.
TOS falls into the last category in its entirety because it is TOS, of course. Pages we're converting from Legendary Badfic and Slain Sue pages fall into the first and second categories respectively.
But like, if "The Smasher" weren't an author-requested mission, it probably wouldn't warrant a page. The only other reason it might be considered noteworthy is that it's the first in the spin-off, but even so, it's bog-standard.
And we don't want to end up with an overrepresentation of missions by people who edit the wiki just because they edit the wiki. That's how things got out of whack for us on TV Tropes.
~Neshomeh
-
Looks great, I'll try making a page (nm) by
on 2023-03-12 03:06:40 UTC
Reply
-
I see you have! by
on 2023-03-12 04:53:22 UTC
Reply
Now, how about working on some of the badfic or Sue pages that need to be converted to mission pages?
~Neshomeh
-
I'll try (nm) by
on 2023-03-12 04:57:28 UTC
Reply
-
Er. No, not yet. ^_^; Here's what I'm thinking... by
on 2023-03-10 16:16:12 UTC
Edited
Reply
We'd talked about swapping out Sue pages, but I don't think we'd gotten round to starting. I figure, we go ahead and start throwing a few at the wall, figure out what works, and standardize later.
My vague, fuzzy notion is something like a cross between an episode synopsis and what a mission report might look like in-universe, if that makes sense? "Synopsis" details could include what the agents were doing when the BEEP happened, any personal drama that played out during the mission, and the resolution or however things wrapped up at the end. "Report" details could include what disguises were used, what challenges the agents faced due to chargeable bad writing, and a brief dossier on any Sues or other non-canon targets dealt with.
But I don't know what's going to work in practice as far as formatting, so don't worry about it too much for now. {= )
I HAVE thought about naming conventions. Where there's no ambiguity, just [[Mission Title]] should be fine, but in the case of something like "Celebrian," where there's another page sharing the name, I think [[Celebrian (mission)]] is probably simplest.
I know there are some missions that share names, too, so if/when we run into that, I reckon we do as we've done with agents and go [[Mission Name (Author name)]]. E.g., if Ix and I both had pages about our missions titled "Family Ties," we'd have [[Family Ties (Iximaz)]] and [[Family Ties (Neshomeh)]].
Honestly, I think needing to disambiguate missions is going to be very rare, so I'm not going to worry about other fringe cases until we run into one. {= )
We will of course have categories, possibly starting with [[Category:PPC Stories]] to be inclusive of non-missions and adding granularity as needed. Like, we'll obviously need [[Category:TOS Missions]], for one. We might want [[Category:Tolkienverse Missions]], [[Category:Potterverse Missions]], etc. But we'll see!
~Neshomeh
(Edit: I did some accidental Markdown with parentheses? I don't get it. But I fixed it.)
-
Ah, ok. by
on 2023-03-09 21:56:03 UTC
Reply
I do worry, though, that the people on Fanlore might not like a bunch of PPCers editing all their badfic pages. This might just be me catastrophizing.
As for Legendaries, I don't think WarriorJoe will go through the Cupcakes mission, nor Laburnum and kitsune106 for For Your Eyes only, nor Trojie and Pads for LittlefootxCera (which really needs a rewrite), nor Kippur for Marissa Picard, nor Laburnum, kitsune106, insanegrrl, and Nin Brandt for That Series.
I don't remember if anyone sporked any Chaser Wolf fics, and I don't think terrofin will go over Naga Eyes, nor Trojie and Pads for To The Moon and Violation of the Evenstar.
I do wonder, though, whether Fanlore would object to us making articles for Bleepfics. Not all of them are well-known, and they might not like people coming in and making articles on random badfics.
-Ls
-
I would also prefer not to move stuff onto Fanlore, by
on 2023-03-09 23:55:46 UTC
Reply
mostly because it feels like it's just dragging out old wank by making a page for a fic and then calling it a badfic and then mentioning PPC involvement. If the fic doesn't have a mission, it can be deleted off our wiki. My Immortal has its own dang wiki at this point; I don't really think it's necessary to have yet another internet page dedicated to it until Ix posts their mission to it.
What Nesh is suggesting is an umbrella Legendaries page that has a list of known Legendaries with very coy summaries. Legendaries with missions can keep their pages (as long as the focus of the page is on the mission) and link back to the umbrella page. If a page on Fanlore exists for a fic, link to the Fanlore page from the umbrella Legendaries page.
But if there's not a page on Fanlore already, and the fic is so obscure that only the PPC really remembers it, I don't know if I would be comfortable making a page for it on Fanlore. Most of the really big ones already got missioned, and other infamous ones like Dipper Goes to Taco Bell, etc, have Fanlore pages.
I'm all for narrowing the scope of the PPC Wiki to things specifically about or done by our OCs. If that means consigning some Bleepfics to the memory hole, then so be it. If this particular Bleepfic means a lot to you, then bring it back by missioning it. Otherwise I don't really see the point of keeping it on the Wiki if it's going to attract trolls. And I'm pretty sure making a slew of Fanlore pages about fics that a tiny corner of the internet has deemed 'legendarily bad' would also attract trolls.
-
The beacon has been lit - Neshomeh calls for aid! by
on 2023-03-09 16:04:20 UTC
Reply
[Dramatically slams the double doors of the Board back; runs out of energy and just sort of slumps against them]
I'm happy to throw up a hub page for dramatic readings on the Multiverse Monitor Archives - I think it's in scope, and certainly fits better there than on the Lost Tales. I quite like that our two archives have such different focusses; there's a bit of overlap (Suedom could logically be on either), but largely they stand apart. Um... do we have a lot of dramatic readings? Sadly I think the York Gathering "legolas" may have died with my Google account.
The good news is that Neocities' T&Cs specifically do not ban explicit material - instead, they state "You understand that information available to you through Neocities may include materials that are unedited, sexually explicit or offensive to you and that your access to such materials is at your own risk. Neocities and its affiliates hereby disclaim any responsibility for or control over such materials." Which I think is what you wanted Fandom to be doing, tbh. (Obviously illegal, threatening, and harassing material are still banned.)
I see you've also sneakily saddled me with the "legolas" and "C_l_br__n" pages; thanks for that. ^_~ The good news is that the mission to Teh Bad Fic is pretty prudish - possibly too much so, it skips over vast swathes of what makes the fic so legendarily bad, but that's Historical Me for you. And I should have a link to the badfic at the foot of the mission, so it will be findable if anyone is feeling masochistic. I'll try and take a look tomorrow and see what I can do.
hS
PS: I know you're going to get around to Community Members, but just throwing this in there: a lot of our founders have a namesake agent or other character. Jay, Acacia, Miss Cam, the Great Goddess GreyLadyBast, Thalia Weaver (DCPS), etc etc. The Fandom T&Cs talk about full pages on real people; a section titled "Namesake" on self-named inserts might be acceptable? Link to a userpage if they have one, or give a one-paragraph summary of who they were otherwise. "Miss Cam was the creator of [[OFUM]], and one of the three [[Permission Giver]]s designated by [[Jay#Namesake|Jay]] to carry on the PPC."
-
The Bookworm would fain send aid as well, but is oath-bound to stay in the Federation of Academia... by
on 2023-03-09 20:26:52 UTC
Reply
until near midsummer.
-
And Huinesoron will answer, it seems! {= D by
on 2023-03-09 16:38:28 UTC
Reply
Hope you don't mind if I slump with you. Slumping is better with a friend. {= )
I'm sad if the York reading is gone. Did you know it's linked from Fanlore's "legolas by laura" page? o.o (There's actually a bit of PPC-related content on there. Much of which is horribly out of date or plain incorrect, like this page. I don't even. What. But that is a matter for another day.)
The other reading I know about off the top of my head is the "Blood Raining Night" one. I think there were just the two?
Good on Neocities for being reasonable about non-illegal explicit content—and yes, that's the kind of policy I was talking about.
Community Members are indeed the subject of my next post. I like your Namesake suggestion!
~Neshomeh
-
"legolas by laura" lives! by
on 2023-03-09 19:19:32 UTC
Reply
I found my copy of the video, and was actually able to upload the full-size version now - 48 MB rather than the 8 MB version that was all Youtube could take back in the day. (Theoretically we could go up to 300 MB if I used the original .AVI files, but that's going a bit too far, don't you think?)
hS
-
Don't forget the My Immortal reading. (nm) by
on 2023-03-09 16:48:56 UTC
Reply
-
I'll have to see if I still have a saved copy. by
on 2023-03-09 16:47:54 UTC
Reply
I am something of a hoarder when it comes to digital stuff, so the only question is whether the video was too large in 2008 to keep on the hard drive. I'll have a look tonight.
I see Fanlore believes you to be Miss Cam. Now that would be a fun conspiracy theory - maybe the earliest PPCers still walk among us under different names! But they chose those names in, like, 2003, and spent a year or so setting up their new identities while keeping their original names in use. And it was all so much effort that they've just kept using those new names for 20 years. :D
hS
-
What slightly older inactive Boarder are you secretly, hS? (nm) by
on 2023-03-09 23:52:53 UTC
Reply
-
I don't know what you're talking about. by
on 2023-03-10 00:13:46 UTC
Reply
High Priest Dafydd of the Temple of GreyLadyBast (all hail her Most Holy Hat) can definitely vouch that I'm not her, if that's what you're asking. >.>
hS
-
I bet Nesh has already seen this, but Kimberton has replied. by
on 2023-03-08 18:07:06 UTC
Reply
-Ls
-
Oh Eru looks like we've violated the ToS (panics) by
on 2023-03-07 23:20:33 UTC
Reply
Which means our wiki is in danger of being shut down.
-
Stop that. It's neither helpful nor true. (nm) by
on 2023-03-07 23:24:28 UTC
Reply
-
I'm sorry by
on 2023-03-07 23:35:35 UTC
Reply
These pages had the same content that that lead TV Tropes to almost die, so I'm a bit afraid.
-
Fortunately, we have a magical thing called an Edit button. {= ) by
on 2023-03-07 23:46:06 UTC
Reply
Sorry for snapping at you, but I'm still a little sick, and wiki BS two days in a row is frustrating enough without having to stop the sky falling, too. This is fixable. Please remain calm.
~Neshomeh
-
I'm on it. (nm) by
on 2023-03-07 22:30:14 UTC
Reply
-
What's Actually Happening: Cliff's Notes by
on 2023-03-07 23:41:31 UTC
Reply
We apparently got reported for having pages about "non-notable living people" (e.g. badfic authors). Such pages are not permitted per Fandom's Community Creation Policy, and have been deleted by a FANDOM staff member. That's fine, we were moving in that direction anyway.
For some reason, the Christopher Paolini page also got deleted??? This is not fine. I'm querying the staff member about it.
The Rose Potter page was deleted for "NSFW descriptions of underage sex." Fine: we can edit that and restore it. We'll need a new page image, though, since apparently super-stylized cartoon nakedness is too "obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, [or] profane" for FANDOM now. (If doctorlit would like to say "I told you so" at this time, I won't get mad. {= P )
The Celebrian (badfic) page was deleted for an unspecified "Terms of Use violation." Not fine. I can guess what the problem is, but I'm querying the staff member about it on principle.
I'm also asking:
- To be pointed to FANDOM's guidelines about what constitutes NSFW content/images (if one actually exists; I'm not aware of any).
- For confirmation that we're allowed to have pages about our own community members, since the CCP states "What is acceptable will vary depending on the type of community," and our own members ARE notable to us.
The takeaway:
- No more pages about badfic authors, period. (Again, we were moving in that direction anyway. This is fine.)
- We need to be a little bit more careful about how much detail we include about NSFW subjects, especially where it concerns underage characters. People can be prudish little babies about sex sometimes, but fine.
- We are NOT in danger of having the wiki deleted. Jesus Christ.
~Neshomeh
-
FANDOM staff's response by
on 2023-03-08 18:13:20 UTC
Reply
Kimberton writes:
Hi Neshomeh, I’d be happy to go over these with you.
- Paolini’s page was removed because, while his work may inspire fanfic, the article on him was more of an attack page on his work than anything else. It would be fine to have a page state that he inspires fanfic and which of his works were inspiration for articles on your wiki, but an attack page bashing his work is not appropriate and may not be recreated.
- As long as the Spidey3000 is about a fictional character and not a real person, it is fine to restore the page.
- Celebrian (badfic) violated several of our Terms of Use and cannot be recreated/restored/remade. The specific issues with Celebrian (badfic) were multiple instances of rape/non-consensual sex, anal penetration and bestiality. This content is not welcome on Fandom.
- Rose Potter was removed for NSFW content involving an underaged/minor character. The character was listed on the page as being between the ages of 11-16 and the details of this fanfic list “exploring/exploiting teenage sexual activtity”, sexual “under- and over tones” related to underaged/minor characters, relationships between Rose (a minor) and an older man, “highly graphic, gory sex ritual” among underaged/minor characters, etc. We do not tolerate any sexual material about minors/underage characters and this cannot be recreated. The article also included a nude image of the character which was deleted and may not be restored.
- “Given that our wiki exists primarily for the purpose of documenting creative works by our own community members, I would assume we're still allowed to document the creators of said works (i.e. our own members). They are notable to us.” No, you may not. They may be notable to the wiki community, but they are not notable enough to be documented. Our policy is clear: Please do not create communities or pages (even humorous ones) about living people who aren’t publicly notable, including classmates and teachers, gaming clans, forum communities, YouTube or other social media personalities and more. Even positive articles about people can cause unnecessary drama and may become a tempting target for personal attacks, cyberbullying, unwanted exposure of personal information, and other violations of Fandom, Inc.’s Terms of Use (https://www.fandom.com/community-creation-policy) Kimberton Kimberton 17:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
So, according to that last bit, apparently we're not allowed to have pages about the frelling creators of our own community anymore. FFS. Never mind the actual censorship regarding discussion of sexual topics or having a negative opinion of a public figure, tone-policing be damned. I can't deal with this right now, I have to do my actual job.
Yo, just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any reasonable alternatives to FANDOM? Just, y'know, no reason, just wondering. }= /
~Neshomeh
-
I can see where else they could be coming from by
on 2023-03-09 03:21:08 UTC
Reply
That is, the staff probably need to come up with some kind of policy to shut down potential People We Don't Like Wikis ("you definitely shouldn't harass them *wink*"). It's reasonable to try to have a policy against that sort of thing given the state of the internet.
And then, due to a combination of limited staff resources (meaning not wanting to get drawn into arguments about how our page about $random_person is fine, really) and concern about scandal/advertisers/..., they probably went and tossed down a broad policy that stuff like the Jay and Acacia pages clipped the edges of.
Like, as seen in this here thread, it's obviously not quite a good solution to the problem they might've been trying to address, but I can at least understand it.
- Tomash
-
So there are alternatives by
on 2023-03-08 19:32:40 UTC
Reply
Like wikidot, etc... there are many different wiki providers. Miraheze looks the most promising because it's free, noncommercial, and runs MediaWiki, just like fandom, to minimize transition pain.
Of course we can also self-host but I don't think that's practically viable right now for cost and especially time reasons.
-
In the meantime, I think by
on 2023-03-09 06:33:42 UTC
Reply
we should still create a mirror/backup wiki anyway, just in case.
-
Their content policy looks more reasonable re. NSFW topics... by
on 2023-03-08 20:10:21 UTC
Reply
With them, NSFW warnings actually count for something! Nice.
For the record, I'm not necessarily proposing we actually jump ship from FANDOM right stat now, since there ARE ways to work around their policies while keeping most of our existing content there, but I AM going to find out if I can create a backup that might be ported elsewhere, just in case they become unbearably draconian.
~Neshomeh
-
Update: I have a text-only XML backup of the wiki. by
on 2023-03-09 03:36:10 UTC
Reply
That includes revisions, but does not include images. Images will need to be backed up separately. Joy.
~Neshomeh
-
There are alternatives. by
on 2023-03-08 18:27:13 UTC
Reply
Sites like Miraheze or BookStack.
I have to say, the "No-non-notable-individuals" is stupid. So, so, stupid. We can't even have pages on Jay, Acacia, Thalia Weaver or Miss Cam?!?!? That's... beyond stupid. I guess we could get around this by making dummy userpages.. but seriously. Not only that, but "No YouTubers"? Well, there goes half of Wikitubia! And might there be some pages on the My Immortal Wiki that could be deleted under this (lack of) thinking?
Actually, who determines notability here? FANDOM?
I don't know what to say about the Celebrian and Rose Potter pages. Just... aaagh!
I guess that's good about the Spidey3000 and Paolini pages.
-Ls, positively enraged
-
I admit the "Celebrian" page was more detailed than it needed to be... by
on 2023-03-08 20:29:02 UTC
Reply
But the "Rose Potter" complaint gets me really hacked off. When it gets to the point of not being allowed to state that a thing was written about in a fictional story, that's pure crap.
And seriously, being prevented from documenting our own historical figures? Because they're afraid it will be "tempting" for trolls on the Internet? I see where they're coming from, I do, but considering we credit our creators for their creations on many pages anyway, and it would be wrong not to, I don't quite see the use. Any troll with a grudge knows how to use a Search bar.
SIGH.
Anyway. I'm gonna come up with a plan for what we need to do next. Create backups, plan rewrites, consider where to potentially rehome some content, etc. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to jump in and start making sensible edits to existing pages that might give FANDOM the vapors, please do.
~Neshomeh
-
Considering that we have user pages, which are publicly editable, it's just absurd. by
on 2023-03-08 20:53:21 UTC
Edited
Reply
Because trolls can't possibly find and edit a user page, but will inevitably hack any actual pages.
If they're so concerned about this, why allow publicly editable user pages?
sigh
Anyway, I'd be happy to help with said sensible edits. I suspect some of the other Legendary pages might be in violation.
-Ls
-
Oh, absolutely. by
on 2023-03-08 21:30:49 UTC
Reply
I mean, the difference is that a User page is created by the user (and impersonation is not allowed, so no to dummy pages). A person can't dox themself, so FANDOM can't be held accountable. At least, I suspect the threat of legal liability for user content/behavior is what has them scared.
Which is unfortunate, because web hosts have been legally (in the US) off the hook for most content and activity by users for ages, but since the open Internet is currently under threat in the US... here I stop myself from digressing into a political rant. >.>
It could also be about not wanting to offend the delicate sensibilities of advertisers; I hear that's the excuse on YouTube. In which case [further political/economic opinions withheld].
AHEM.
I actually wanted to say: I invite editors to be as sarcastically twee as they can stand while editing pages that mention sex. I'm fantasizing about an entire cypher with code phrases like, idk, "sharing a vase," "petting the rooster," "drinking a milkshake," any other silly thing. {= P
Or, of course, we can always say "things we can't talk about on FANDOM." But that's less fun.
~Neshomeh
everyone and their grandma supports Net Neutrality why is this even still a debate aaaaaarrghhh
-
siiiiigh by
on 2023-03-08 03:11:45 UTC
Reply
2 (I'm kind of assuming Kimberton didn't read the page, and assumed Paolini was a badfic author like Squirrelking. I'm not making the obvious joke. Assuming we get the page back, I do think we should uh. make it a bit less witch-hunty? Guy was only a teen when he started publishing, and we wouldn't want potential newbies who like Inheritance to see that and feel dissuaded from joining . . . I don't know why I put all this in parentheses . . .)
3 Well, I don't think I get to say "I told you so," because I don't actually remember telling you so . . . >.>
4 Huh. Hum. Huh. Um. Ummmmmm . . . Hmmmm . . . Do we need a "Celebrian" page? Do we need any pages for individual badfics at all? They tend to just be descriptions of the bad stuff inside, which is already readable in the mission, and then a link to the mission, which itself is already available on some number of other character pages, and the new spin-off hub pages, and the continuum pages, and the killed badfic pages . . . It does feel kind of unnecessary? And worse than unnecessary, if they're going to attract this type of attention from admins on high? (The one exception I would make would be fics like That Series and "Subjugation" that had multiple "episodes" across different spin-offs, since they do have a rather unique self-contained story within our universe, and keeping all the links in one place does have value for ease of access.) I know, I know, "Celebrian" is "legendary" . . . but that's never really meant anything, yeah? Just food for thought.
7 Frustrating that someone clearly discovered our Wiki and went out of their way to cause bureaucratic trouble for us. Such is the way of the internet, I suppose. Human beings are so fun.
13 Nesh, I'm sorry you've had to deal with all this while feeling sick. I just peeked at the deletion log, and I see you've been very busy dealing with spam and troll edits for quite a while now. Once again, I hate that I'm not online as much any more to be handling some of this responsibility with you. I wish I could be tending to the Wiki as much as I used to, but my job is just very A Lot, and I'm not home as much any more. I'm sorry. : ( If there's anything I can help with in this current situation, let me know.
—doctorlit, Squirrelbutler
-
Well, the Hermione troll did get a newbie who found the wiki and wanted to join. by
on 2023-03-08 16:18:04 UTC
Edited
Reply
So that's a positive. I'd guess that Kimberton was alerted by one of the trolls we've been having? Maybe that Kahran guy?
As for Legendary pages: actually, there are reasons to keep them, beyond the series Legendaries:
First of all, not all Legendaries have missions--Agony In Pink doesn't have a mission any more, and isn't going to get one in the future, for example. My Immortal, Chibiusa's Seventh Birthday, Cloud Mows the Lawn, Partially Kissed Hero, Starkit's Prophecy, and (kinda?) Subjugation don't have missions yet, though some of them are Claimed.
Secondly, the summaries are kinda important if one wants to, say, know why Celebrian is bad in a non-detailed way, to decide if reading the badfic or mission would be too much.
Thirdly, they often contain links to other sporkings, dramatic readings, wikis, etc. of the badfic. In some cases, one could read that instead of the mission that hasn't actually occurred.
-Ls, Squirrel...yeller-at-er?
Edit: It's Kimberton, not Kimberly. How did I make that mistake?
-
Hi by
on 2023-03-08 22:19:32 UTC
Reply
Yep, I was fighting that troll, found this place, and here I am.
-
Hello! by
on 2023-03-09 00:51:10 UTC
Reply
Nice to see you've decided to drop by the Board!
Feel free to introduce yourself in a new thread so you can get the traditional PPC welcome wagon free from distractions. ^_^
~Neshomeh
-
Hi! Welcome aBoard! by
on 2023-03-08 23:06:52 UTC
Reply
Traditionally, we hand out newbie gifts, so here--have a purple duckling. It is very adorable.
-Ls
-
I added a new picture for Rose Potter in the images section by
on 2023-03-08 00:05:12 UTC
Reply
I gave her vaguely druid-like clothes so Fandom can’t complain.
-
Looks good! (nm) by
on 2023-03-08 00:51:49 UTC
Reply
-
Thank you! That looks pretty good. However... by
on 2023-03-08 00:19:37 UTC
Reply
Since it's going in an infobox, can you please replace the existing image with one that is 300px tall?
Unless it's been fixed since I last looked, tall images break infoboxes. {= /
~Neshomeh
-
The Inheritance Wiki even has a page on Paolini. by
on 2023-03-07 23:46:14 UTC
Reply
Not sure why they're allowed to have one, but we're not.
-Ls
-
Not to mention, y'know, all our other author pages. /rolls eyes heavily/ (nm) by
on 2023-03-07 23:49:10 UTC
Reply
-
Maybe we should do something about the Chaser Wolf page? by
on 2023-03-07 23:55:24 UTC
Reply
It counted as a Bleepfic. We might just need to edit the Bleepfic page to remove the link.
-Ls
-
Yeah, for sure. Any links to deleted pages will need cleaning up. (nm) by
on 2023-03-08 00:04:10 UTC
Reply
-
Also, Squirrelking is pretty notable. by
on 2023-03-08 00:51:34 UTC
Reply
We could at least put up the page as "halflife fulllife consequences" or some such.
-Ls
